Angel 5x08 Destiny

[sisabet]

So, wow. I'm still a bit flustered.

All of Angel's boyfriends are back. I am incredibly happy. Ya'll knew that right?

What's in the box?? Mutha-fuckin' Lindsey! That is what is in the box, bitch!

Okay - the Angel/Spike stuff - I'm wanting to start three vids all at once right now. The source, the footage - it is madness I say! Slashy good madness. But the remaster of Last Stand in Open Country - man I'm gonna have that vid back up by the end of the fucking week. My chest hurts and for once it isn't SARS.

Angel, sweet Angel, oh honey, you are special. So is Spike. You are both very special. Just not in the eyes of the Lord.

Angel you had a fucking kid! Okay, maybe not the best example, but you're a player baby. And you don't hate the player people. You hate the game.

::nods solemnly::

And yeah, Spike - Angel may sit in the big chair of evil itself at Wolfram & Hart, but it ain't that simple. Except maybe it is...I really have a lot to think about.

I thought it was sweet that Angel tried to explain just what Spike was getting into drinking from the cup of torment, because Spike hasn't got a clue. He thinks he has a clue, but he really doesn't. Not his fault, I want to stress, but Angel - finally, about this one thing and this one thing only, has a fucking clue. Angel knows from torment. Spike knows from shit. There is a big ass difference.

And finally: Lindsey is a Prince fan? The mind boggles.

Comments

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

Spike acts first and thinks later. This is not a judgement on him - this is an opinion based in canon - he has vampire ADD, he can never wait for anything and he tends to act on impulse. Even with a soul - impulse. I don't think this makes him less worthy than Angel - but I do think Angel has a ton more insight when it comes to this one thing.

I agree with you there, but you didn't really answer my question. We both know that if he didn't understand he'd drink it anyway, but why do you think he didn't understand it this time? he certianly has suffered already from his choices, which I think would give him more insight than he had in, say, season 6. I've been wondering if Spike's death (after a year of craziness) has changed him to make him more aware of the price of things he wants.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I don't think there is anyway he can understand what he is undertaking - I don't know that there is anyway *we* can really comprehend what is at stake.

I understand that Spike has been through a lot and made tremendous sacrifices in the past year - but I don't see that any of that has changed his level of insight - yeah he understands sacrifice in the moment but what he did closing the hellmouth is nothing compared to what is to come (IMO) - it is also different - making an instaneous sacrifice versus living with the soul day in and day out. I want to see Spike tackle that next - just coping - then we can talk Shanshu.

But why do I really think Spike has no clue? What is the reward for the Shanshu? Becoming human - when in a gazillion years has Spike ever wanted to be human? He loves being a vampire and there is no happiness clause on his soul. Spike has not stopped to think about any of this - he is react, react, react. You don't have to agree with me, but this is a firm belief of mine: Spike has no clue about what Perpetual Torment means, and Angel does. Normally Angel is the clueless one and Spike is Mr. Explain Other's Motivations, but about this one thing; I am going with advantage Angel.

[rashaka.livejournal.com]

I don't know that there is anyway *we* can really comprehend what is at stake.

Definitely not. And therein lies the problem with trying to judge "who has a better idea"... if we can't at least semi-accurately guess, we can't guess on behalf of the characters.

when in a gazillion years has Spike ever wanted to be human? He loves being a vampire and there is no happiness clause on his soul. Spike has not stopped to think about any of this - he is react, react, react.

That's a true point. But if they protray it (as they seemed to do in Destiny) that it is something "he wanted more," then I'm inclined to take that as it's put to me. Sometimes I find that what you get at face value really *is* what you get, and looking deeper and then finding out it's not deeper is awkward to accept. Other times, you take it at face value and you get Jossed. It's a toss up. But in the circumstances as it has been, I was pretty well convinced that Spike wanted it badly-- "for both reasons," as he said. Most of the "I never wanted to be human" stuff happened before the soul... I can't remember him saying that in season 7. He might have and I've forgotten, but I don't remember so. I think in season 7 he didn't *know* what he wanted-- even when he "got his rocks back" so to speak after Get It Done. It seemed to me that wearing his coat again was a lot of bluster, and much of it for Buffy's sake to give her confidence. Because every time it was back to the two of them, he'd be exactly as he was...Spwilliam. The Rocks!Back!Spike occurred mostly around all the others. I think Spike was awfully unsure of what he wanted after he got the soul, and the only thing he did know that he wanted was to be connected to Buffy, and to be good in his own right.

So when Spike comes back, having endured a death experience, and spends some hard time "not affecting the world" in any way, being away from the people he loves and around a person he loathes, and sees what Angel is doing with his able-to-affect-things SoulTime, and finds out that there could be something that could allow him to share a life of some sort with Buffy... Well, he looked awfully thoughtful at the mention of the potential to be human. After all, it was something he'd never even considered possible enough to imagine wanting it. I can be be pretty convinced that it's something he really wants. Not something that SoullessSpike ever wanted, but certainly something that SouledSpike-ex-dead-recent-champion-in-love-with-a-human-eternal-romantic-William might want. And there was a lot of characterization of Spike as William the Bloody Awful Lovesick Poet in this episode.

You don't have to agree with me, but this is a firm belief of mine: Spike has no clue about what Perpetual Torment means, and Angel does. Normally Angel is the clueless one and Spike is Mr. Explain Other's Motivations, but about this one thing; I am going with advantage Angel.

I can't decide on that. I think I'd have to maybe put it like this: Spike has some very decent amount of clue, Angel has a better amount of clue. If that makes sense. :)