Angel 5x08 Destiny
Nov. 19th, 2003 11:08 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sisabetSo, wow. I'm still a bit flustered.
All of Angel's boyfriends are back. I am incredibly happy. Ya'll knew that right?
What's in the box?? Mutha-fuckin' Lindsey! That is what is in the box, bitch!
Okay - the Angel/Spike stuff - I'm wanting to start three vids all at once right now. The source, the footage - it is madness I say! Slashy good madness. But the remaster of Last Stand in Open Country - man I'm gonna have that vid back up by the end of the fucking week. My chest hurts and for once it isn't SARS.
Angel, sweet Angel, oh honey, you are special. So is Spike. You are both very special. Just not in the eyes of the Lord.
Angel you had a fucking kid! Okay, maybe not the best example, but you're a player baby. And you don't hate the player people. You hate the game.
::nods solemnly::
And yeah, Spike - Angel may sit in the big chair of evil itself at Wolfram & Hart, but it ain't that simple. Except maybe it is...I really have a lot to think about.
I thought it was sweet that Angel tried to explain just what Spike was getting into drinking from the cup of torment, because Spike hasn't got a clue. He thinks he has a clue, but he really doesn't. Not his fault, I want to stress, but Angel - finally, about this one thing and this one thing only, has a fucking clue. Angel knows from torment. Spike knows from shit. There is a big ass difference.
And finally: Lindsey is a Prince fan? The mind boggles.
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Date: 2003-11-19 08:15 pm (UTC)Hee! :)
*will be dreaming of scene where Angel & Spike find Lindsey*
Date: 2003-11-19 08:27 pm (UTC)wait- a question- Does Spike have any tattoos?? Or will Angel & Lindsey be the only 2 tattoo-ed boys? Ok, back to scene- yes, writing & fighting & singing, oh my...
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Date: 2003-11-19 09:40 pm (UTC)Bwah!
WES: Angel! Look out! 'The Badguy Formerly Known as Lindey' is behind you!
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Date: 2003-11-19 10:32 pm (UTC)(As an aside, when did I pick up this urge to lick the body-covering tattoos of incredibly sexy men? Oh, Bulletproof Monk, that's right.)
Yep, Sis...I even said it outloud at the end...
Date: 2003-11-19 11:15 pm (UTC)The happiness of others I am questioning. But the slash vidders got a real cause to be happy.
"Does that make me...deviant!"
Got to love that line...I was ranting to the Amish about so much but I did take a moment to say, "And could Angel BE anymore GAY?" They slashed this one up so much they made me believe Angel went home and did Dru just because Spike wasn't in the mood to play.
Rae
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Date: 2003-11-19 11:23 pm (UTC)I was inspired. And I almost managed to cover Eve up all the way.
it's off subject, but...
Date: 2003-11-19 11:36 pm (UTC)Please don't hit me. I don't watch Angel.
Re: it's off subject, but...
Date: 2003-11-20 06:31 am (UTC)It's the big head. Both Dawson and Spike have huge heads compared with the rest of their bodies and other people around them.
Re: it's off subject, but...
Date: 2003-11-20 08:27 am (UTC)Re: it's off subject, but...
Date: 2003-11-20 08:19 am (UTC)It starts out like this:
"Indiana Jones walks into the bar."
We figure Pacey and Spike will starting calling "Iiinndyy!!" but Indy will ignore them and head straight for a back booth. He is there to talk about a prophecy with Wes and Angel.
Oh, and Spock sits alone.
Dawn has a thing for lonely, tragic Spock.
Re: it's off subject, but...
Date: 2003-11-20 03:50 pm (UTC)It starts out like this:
"Indiana Jones walks into the bar."
We figure Pacey and Spike will starting calling "Iiinndyy!!" but Indy will ignore them and head straight for a back booth. He is there to talk about a prophecy with Wes and Angel.
Oh, and Spock sits alone.
Oh, and they're all vampires.
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Date: 2003-11-20 04:57 am (UTC)It's similar to Spike going for a soul, I thought -- he keeps going for these big shiny prizes without having a fucking clue of what the responsibility and pain are going to be like, even if he's got a big shiny heartbroken example right in front of him.
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Date: 2003-11-20 08:25 am (UTC)They both need to just take a vow to not do anything, ever, unless directed by Wes. Yes - they should turn it all over to a higher power (or in this case, intellect).
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Date: 2003-11-20 09:13 am (UTC)My chest hurts and for once it isn't SARS.
*ROTF* *Wheeze*
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Date: 2003-11-23 11:04 am (UTC)I don't know about that. I'm not disagreeing with you (because Spike often thinks he understands more than he does), but I don't know if that's true this time. Something in the that scene did catch me. Angel said something like ... "and it will burn you up from the inside." He said it like Spike didn't understand. But it made me think, "Um, hello? Spike's already been burned up from the inside by holy redmeption torturous death." So, I guess I'm asking you to elaborate a bit so I can understand what you mean.
Kind of a side thought... I was thinking about what Angel said in episode 5.2, I think... he said "I had my soul force don me and had to endure a hundred years of torture to come to terms with it. You asked for yours and moaned around a basement for a few weeks; what's fair about that?" I'm not sure how accurately I'm remembering that conversation, but later it bugged me because didn't season 4 prove that Angel *didn't* spend that century coming to terms with it? In fact, he spent most of it much like Spike near the end of season 7... it was only the last twenty-five that he spent rolling around in sewers... and not because he felt guilty about killing as Angelus, but because he felt guilty about letting someone die so that he, Angel, could drink the blood. So what's up with that?
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Date: 2003-11-23 04:56 pm (UTC)Spike acts first and thinks later. This is not a judgement on him - this is an opinion based in canon - he has vampire ADD, he can never wait for anything and he tends to act on impulse. Even with a soul - impulse. I don't think this makes him less worthy than Angel - but I do think Angel has a ton more insight when it comes to this one thing.
Angel has spent the last 100 plus years coming to terms with his soul. Sometimes he does this on the outskirts of society - living indoors and participating somewhat - and sometime he lives in the sewers and broods. The one thing that is constant is his search for a way to *handle* this burden. This soul is not as simple and guilt for this and guilt for that - it is a bit more complicated than "I drank from doughnut boy, and now I must be punished." - Consider that just one more thing on a continuous scale that is always wavering. Angel has never really been at peace with the soul - at times however he has been at a stalemate.
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Date: 2003-11-23 06:21 pm (UTC)I agree with you there, but you didn't really answer my question. We both know that if he didn't understand he'd drink it anyway, but why do you think he didn't understand it this time? he certianly has suffered already from his choices, which I think would give him more insight than he had in, say, season 6. I've been wondering if Spike's death (after a year of craziness) has changed him to make him more aware of the price of things he wants.
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Date: 2003-11-23 07:25 pm (UTC)I understand that Spike has been through a lot and made tremendous sacrifices in the past year - but I don't see that any of that has changed his level of insight - yeah he understands sacrifice in the moment but what he did closing the hellmouth is nothing compared to what is to come (IMO) - it is also different - making an instaneous sacrifice versus living with the soul day in and day out. I want to see Spike tackle that next - just coping - then we can talk Shanshu.
But why do I really think Spike has no clue? What is the reward for the Shanshu? Becoming human - when in a gazillion years has Spike ever wanted to be human? He loves being a vampire and there is no happiness clause on his soul. Spike has not stopped to think about any of this - he is react, react, react. You don't have to agree with me, but this is a firm belief of mine: Spike has no clue about what Perpetual Torment means, and Angel does. Normally Angel is the clueless one and Spike is Mr. Explain Other's Motivations, but about this one thing; I am going with advantage Angel.
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Date: 2003-11-23 08:27 pm (UTC)Definitely not. And therein lies the problem with trying to judge "who has a better idea"... if we can't at least semi-accurately guess, we can't guess on behalf of the characters.
when in a gazillion years has Spike ever wanted to be human? He loves being a vampire and there is no happiness clause on his soul. Spike has not stopped to think about any of this - he is react, react, react.
That's a true point. But if they protray it (as they seemed to do in Destiny) that it is something "he wanted more," then I'm inclined to take that as it's put to me. Sometimes I find that what you get at face value really *is* what you get, and looking deeper and then finding out it's not deeper is awkward to accept. Other times, you take it at face value and you get Jossed. It's a toss up. But in the circumstances as it has been, I was pretty well convinced that Spike wanted it badly-- "for both reasons," as he said. Most of the "I never wanted to be human" stuff happened before the soul... I can't remember him saying that in season 7. He might have and I've forgotten, but I don't remember so. I think in season 7 he didn't *know* what he wanted-- even when he "got his rocks back" so to speak after Get It Done. It seemed to me that wearing his coat again was a lot of bluster, and much of it for Buffy's sake to give her confidence. Because every time it was back to the two of them, he'd be exactly as he was...Spwilliam. The Rocks!Back!Spike occurred mostly around all the others. I think Spike was awfully unsure of what he wanted after he got the soul, and the only thing he did know that he wanted was to be connected to Buffy, and to be good in his own right.
So when Spike comes back, having endured a death experience, and spends some hard time "not affecting the world" in any way, being away from the people he loves and around a person he loathes, and sees what Angel is doing with his able-to-affect-things SoulTime, and finds out that there could be something that could allow him to share a life of some sort with Buffy... Well, he looked awfully thoughtful at the mention of the potential to be human. After all, it was something he'd never even considered possible enough to imagine wanting it. I can be be pretty convinced that it's something he really wants. Not something that SoullessSpike ever wanted, but certainly something that SouledSpike-ex-dead-recent-champion-in-love-with-a-human-eternal-romantic-William might want. And there was a lot of characterization of Spike as William the Bloody Awful Lovesick Poet in this episode.
You don't have to agree with me, but this is a firm belief of mine: Spike has no clue about what Perpetual Torment means, and Angel does. Normally Angel is the clueless one and Spike is Mr. Explain Other's Motivations, but about this one thing; I am going with advantage Angel.
I can't decide on that. I think I'd have to maybe put it like this: Spike has some very decent amount of clue, Angel has a better amount of clue. If that makes sense. :)