Convoluted A/W that turns into Angel of the Damned and Really I Should Go Home Now

[sisabet]

So here I am and I should be working but I just can't stop thinking about Angel and Wes and while not all of the blame can be laid at Lum's feet, let's just say that a good 30% of my obsession is directly related to "So Real" and the OMIGOD Wes's loveissopureandtrueandwhatthehellisgonnahappen? reaction I had when watching that video. So last night was our first clue and here is where I start wondering not about Wes, but about Angel and maybe a mention or two of Spike (and Brian Kinney), really just for seasoning - like Mrs. Dash...

Spoilers thru 5x01


Okay - so last season in "Awakenings" - the Indiana Jones Dream was "Awakenings" - right?

The thing that strikes me about that dream is how quick Angel was able to forgive Wes - it really only took an apology. That was it. And what gets me even more is that he wanted to forgive Wes - he wanted Wesley back - as he had been, at his side, fighting as a team. I don't know that there is a character that he has ever depended on more than Wes - potentially Cordelia, but that is extremely arguable. Wes is Angel's linch-pin and on his perfect day that is the relationship he has to repair first.

But the fact that he wants and needs Wes does not for a second alter any of what Wes did. And I believe Angel's anger toward Wes was justifiable to the umpteenth degree. The man took his child. Connor's life, in essence, was forfeit the moment Wes betrayed Angel. Even though he eventually returned to this dimension, it was too late. Nothing could have stopped the chain of events leading to "Home" - well actually, there are a lot of things that could have stopped it, but let's go with the Jasmine-predetermined destiny stuff we got last year, cause all that matters right now is what Angel believes and you better believe he gives credence to that. He aches to change things and alter destiny if possible - but I don't know if he can review the events from the point of Connor's return to his sacrifice and actively play what-if without going insane. So it is better to accept that they were pawns of the powers and manipulated to and fro, and once they were conscious of the puppet strings they broke them -- BUT--none of this changes the fact that Wesley is the one to put this plan into motion.

Now we have Angel as the only one who knows this. And the power of forgiveness in that man is just overwhelming. He loves that Wesley, yo. I don't care if you don't see the sexual - it can be love a brother if that is what you want to call it - but dude - that is Angel-love.

And you can see this incredibel ability to forgive in his reaction to Cordelia. I don't see any conflict there at all, any hidden resentment in his feelings for her. I think he let all that go and maybe the PTB and Jasmine and all that provided him with a handy-dandy blame bucket, but I don't know about that either.

I don't think that Angel is deep down a good man. I think he knows it, too and it plagues him. Ya wanna talk innate goodness, then talk about Spike and Brian Kinney and Wesley -they all have this goodness about their core beings - but I truly think Angel has to struggle to actively be good. He has to constantly monitor himself in order to be a champion (and dear Lord I said the "C" word) and find that appropriate reaction. Intellectually he knows what the ethical and moral response is most of the time and he struggles to find that in the gray and live it, because if he doesn't, there is hell to pay. No wonder he wandered for a hundred years coming to terms with his soul and no wonder he sometimes (and probably will again) go beige. You can trust Angel most of the time to do the right thing, but you better believe, inside, where it counts, that was not his first instinct. The man is a walking internal conflict and I love him for it.

So this forgiveness, this acceptance is even more astounding to me, because I don't see any self-convincing going on - this is purely motivated and maybe Angel is growing as a person. He's still damned, but maybe he is developing a bit of the inner goodness he so desperately craves - 'cause buddy, is he gonna need it. And don't think for a moment he doesn't recognize it in Spike and hate him (and himself - nothing new there, really) for it. Wes is good for Angel - and Angel realizes it, but I think Spike is also good for him as well on a completely different level and damn ya'll - I am trying on a OT3, but I just can't make it fit. Help me. Please.

Comments

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Spike with goodness about his core being...hmmm.

Oh yeah - Spike is full of goodness. He is like a jelly doughnut with goodness filling. He is so good that he makes a terrible vampire. He really had to overcompensate for that for years and years - Imagine you are Spike and your closest role model is Angelus and all you want to be in unlife is like that, but there is something internally missing - and then fast forward 100 years and now it is Angel looking at Spike and there is something there in Spike that Angel wants and Spike has (and for once I'm not referring to his cock).

Well - at least that is the story I am watching in my head. No matter what gets told onscreen, this is what I believe in my heart. Cause I like symmetry.

The force and depth of Angel's love is frightening to me

You are so absolutely right about this that I am all weak with the appreciation that you pointed it out. Angel does not love easy - but once he does - damn. And it is an overwhelming, all-encompassing love. Which makes me think that maybe he is Brian Kinney and maybe, just maybe there is a shot at innate goodness, because while love is not necessarily separate from evil (I think Spike and Dru proved that) it is rooted in something good. It just has to be.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Angel will do anything for those he loves

I really disagree with this. I think Angel will do anything to run away from his problems, to make the hard questions and the deep interpersonal conflicts go away. He made all the decisions in his relationship with Buffy, down to deciding when and why to break up, and especially in the crossover ep that makes me throw things at the TV, deciding to remove any chance of their future together because he was too big a coward to be a normal guy in the face of her Slayerness. He mindwiped her into the bargain.

With Connor, he figured it was better to mindwipe the *entire universe* than to deal with a troubled teenaged son's problems. He washed his hands of all responsibility for his son. It's what he's best at.

I don't hate Angel anymore, but I agree with Sisabet's theory that he's not innately good. With respect to human relationships, he's not innately brave, either. I respect his struggle, but I still think that when it comes to feelings, he's a coward.

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

Fascinating! I hadn't previously thought of Angel's choices with regard to turning back the clock in season 1 and altering Connor's and everyone else's memories at the end of season 4 in terms of emotional cowardice, but you make a convincing case. As a theologian I was predisposed to read Angel's actions in the light of "self-sacrifice for the good of others", and therefore see them as good. But as a student of psychology and pastoral counseling, I was really troubled, especially by the season 4 ending, since I live and work among mortal human beings who DON'T have the option of a supernatural "do-over" to erase their painful memories and damaged past relationships. Was "Angel" season 4 trying to tell me that some people and some histories are just too damaged to save? What the hell good was that to me, considering that the world is already full of "cut your losses" messages? What happened to helping the HOPELESS, as well as the helpless?

Now, you've got me seeing Angel's approach to relationships as in some way analogous to Willow's "anything-to-avoid-having-to-face-the-pain-or-work-through-our-differences" approach to relationship difficulties in seasons 3 thru 6 of "Buffy" ("Lover's Walk," "Something Blue," "Tabula Rasa," etc.).

If, as Sisabet and others so convincingly argue, Angel is NOT innately good but loves fiercely and has a great capacity to forgive those whom he loves (based on his awareness that he's done much worse in the past, and still could if he's not careful?), then it's not surprising that he perhaps doubts his ability to come through when the going gets REALLY tough and the moral quandaries and gray areas and sheer annoyances of daily living with people in pain would drive even a good person close to the edge at times.

Interesting! You've given me a lot to think about with this post and its comments.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Oh but I don't at all agree that there was anything at all selfishly motivated in either the Connor mindwipe or setting back the clock with Buffy. I do believe that those were moments of sacrifice and transcendence and cost him much more than he will ever show. I still don't believe he was *good* there - but I totally believe his actions in both were. Ambiguously correct.

I just want to make that clear. I'm not feeling up to debating it at the moment, but give me a few days and bit of emotional distance from some RL stuff and I will with enthusiasm and vigor.

Hey - some people rationalize Spike and "Seeing Red" - I understand Angel and "I Will Remember You"

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the confusion. I understood that the emotional cowardice theory belonged to laurashapiro. And I PREFER to see Angel's actions as self-sacrificial and heroic in the instances cited. But I was so fired up by the whole sequence of comments occasioned by your LJ post, that I was trying to come up with a "unified field theory" of my own to somehow encompass and make sense of all the different points of view. As you can see from my lame concluding paragraph above, I wasn't able to really come up with a coherent way to sum it all up or use it all, so probably should've waited before posting. I just find the whole discussion so darn stimulating!

So, to clarify, I'm big with the "Spike had innate good in him, even without a soul" and "Angel may not be innately good, but that just means he tries harder" school of thought. Count me in on that. I believe that Angel is incapable of letting someone he cares about suffer, if there is any way that he can ameliorate or prevent that suffering (especially by taking the major part of the suffering unto himself). However, I do wonder if he occasionally finds himself in the "theodicy" bind (if we take 'theodicy' to mean the question of how a good and all-loving, all-powerful God can allow so many terrible things to happen? to which the usual theologians' retort is that maybe even God can't figure out a way to fix things without taking away free will)? I mean, does the same will to show mercy and make things better, no matter what the cost, which makes him a CHAMPION also lead him to occasionally cross that line, to adopt the role of benevolent despot, to make what he feels is the hard choice that others shouldn't HAVE to face (and shouldn't have to carry the memory of ever after)? I don't know.

I do know that I'm compelled to keep watching and keep thinking and discussing!

[luminosity]

What Wes did can be forgiven, because he loves Wesley. What Connor did can be forgiven, because he loves Connor. On the other hand, he is capable of being unreasonably pissed off at someone he doesn't like, because he doesn't like them. I think this is actually consistent with him not being a fundamentally 'good' person, because it's not actually sound from an ethical standpoint.

And it's so very human of him, isn't it? :)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Dear Lord - perhaps none of us are innately good?!

[thebratqueen.livejournal.com]

Yup. What you said. [nods sagely]

[claudia-yvr.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Angel is deep down a good man. I think he knows it, too and it plagues him. Ya wanna talk innate goodness, then talk about Spike and Brian Kinney and Wesley -they all have this goodness about their core beings - but I truly think Angel has to struggle to actively be good.

Yes, that's exactly it! Exactly!

Sorry, today is International Feedback Day or something, so I should say more but all I can manage is incoherent squeals of delight and agreement. Please read lots of appreciation and love into those rude, unladylike noises.