I'm On A Rant
Oct. 20th, 2002 08:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sisabetThis was going to be the weekend I got things done. This has turned into the weekend I hid from the things that needed doing. Hey - some advice - if you are stressed and it is a moderately drizzly and gray Sunday, watch Buffy early season 4. Absolutely will make you happy it is autumn. I think it is because that "school just started" vibe is sustained longer because of the college introduction, but I enjoyed those eps playing in the background today. Right now I've got Farscape, "Look at the Princess" parts 1-3 playing. Hee...
Aeryn Sun: I will not be a slave to your hormones.
John Crichton: My hormones! Hey I was lips, you were tongue!
How can you resist that? I am such an unabashed Aeryn/John 'shipper.
Yesterday I settled down in front of the computer with a yellow legal pad. I was all geared up to take notes for feedback on a list of vids that have been languishing on my hard drive for some time now (I was inspired by the incredible feedback I got from renenet). I never got to the much deserved feedback because before I started, I decided to download some new vids.
Okay, here is a bit of trivia for you: how is Xander's Snoopy dance on BtVS 5x03 "The Replacement", shot? Answer: Xander begins the Snoopy dance and the camera is on him from the waist up. It then moves back for a full body shot, Xander spins, the camera goes to a medium shot and then cut to Willow and then back to a close-up on Xander, still dancing. How do I know this? Well, I like to vid. I like Xander. I know all sorts of information regarding where the camera is and who is in a shot on any given episode when it comes to this particular show (ask me about "Charmed" and I couldn't tell you shit). I'm not bragging - there have been hours upon hours of my life wasted watching TV and generally not contributing anything back to society. But I make videos and I enjoy it. I devote a large portion of my free time and money to vidding and I would do it even if the only people to ever see my vids were family members and unfortunate friends who make the mistake of coming over for dinner. But I have worked hard on all of the vids on the sight (well, not "Mean Sleep" - it sucked and Dawn has promised to never repost it again). A couple of months ago I found a lot of vids that featured cut up footage of my older vids. "West End Girls" and "A Change" were the most used - and this was not just one particular vidder - it was several different people at several different sites. I shrugged it off - I figured it would be impossible to stop - and those vids sucked by definition. I also wasn't as attached to the earlier vids - I look at them now and see everything that I did wrong. Then I started seeing "Golden Years" in other vids - curiously enough - just the Spike parts. I worked really hard to get those sequences down on that vid and when I see another vid that has Spike put the cards down on the table in "Life Serial" and then get rolled out the door, it really bothers me. Those 2 scenes aren't even from the same season and it took forever to get "Goodbye to Iowa" formatted so my WMM would accept it, so I feel proprietorial about that sequence. I also hate confrontation and decided that most of the offenders didn't know not to do this, and I am much to lazy to be responsible for schooling an entire plethora of people genuinely interested only in having Buffy and Spike screwing to as many different songs as possible. Since the majority of the offenders also appeared to be teenage girls who, like me, discovered that their computer came with WMM and they too could have some vidding fun, I really did not think that it would become an issue or would bother me beyond temporary annoyance. I understand that they do not have a clue about how to get source and I discussed it with Dawn. She posted headtilt.com's opinion toward the whole deal - basically don't take from other people's vids - that is a form of plagarism, here is how you get source if you want it, if you can't get a scene any other way- rather than taking scenes from earlier headtilt vids - why not email sisabet and she will help you get the original source, but if you do take source from the older vids - we won't bust you for it, and all future headtilt vids will be modified - please leave them be. I understand that the post we put up was confusing and appeared to give permission to plunder every vid I had made and will make. I intend to clear up that confusion.
Leave my vids alone. Here is why: I work damn hard on each and every vid. I'm tired of seeing my hard work set to crap. I hate confrontation - I really do - remember I'm the girl who broke off her last 2 relationships by moving. I'm beyond passive-aggressive; I'm MIA-Aggressive. At this point, however; I have reached the end of my fucking rope and I am getting ready to throw down. If you need source I have offered to help. Please understand that offer does not mean that if you send me an email asking for random clips of Willow "looking goofy" that I will get right on that - especially if I ask you to be more specific and you respond - "oh, you know, season 1-3" - Hey, if I'm gonna clip for your vid, I might as well make the whole damn thing. You will not get sympathy from me if I find out you have a cable modem and a system better than mine. Go to Hell. I understand it is damn hard getting source - you know why I understand? - because I had to go and download it as well. I've spent the better part of today trying to get my computer to recognize the new capture card Dawn bought, so I won't have to rely on the downloads as much. I have spent this whole damn weekend in front of the damn computer and I enjoy it so quit fucking with my fun! It is not like me to get this angry. But if you use Premiere as your main editing tool then I know what you have to do to steal my vids. All of the vids I have made until "Last Stand" are only available in wmv format. Premiere does not recognize that format. The only way to get it to recognize my vid is to convert that file to mpeg or avi. If you know enough to be able to convert my vid - then you should know enough to keep your goddamn hands off it.
I am really angry. It is all because of the Snoopy dance. Again on the show: medium shot, full shot spin, medium shot, Willow, close-up. In "Pink Houses" the Snoopy dance goes close-up, full shot turn, med shot. When I was editing that sequence Dawn made a crack about how long it would take someone to swipe it. Well, I downloaded this vid and Dawn watched it with me. She immediately started pointing out the "Pink Houses" shots - I was wanting to believe the vid was "inspired by" and not directly lifted until I saw the Snoopy Dance. Dammit. I hate this. I understand seeing a vid and then subconsciously doing a sequence that is similar to the vid you saw - we are all drinking at the same well. Since "Pink Houses" I've noticed a lot of vids using the Xander drool scene from "Teacher's Pet". That's great, the more Xander the better as far as I am concerned. But don't lift from Country Cavalcade. Don't lift from Last Stand. Don't Lift from Twilight Zone. Please Leave Golden Years alone. The rest of the vids have been so cannibalized I really don't care what you do with them. Hey, Let's see Clint Eastwood set to "My Heart Will Go On" and at the end Tara can say "Shhh" and you can put your name on it. That'll be fun, won't it? Oh - I know you want to make vids, too. I understand that desire. But if you make 50% of your vid by taking out various bits and pieces of mine you are a hack. How in this world can you make a comprehensive narrative out of "Everybody Went Low" and "A Change" - the damned vids are completely different!!! I am pissed off - I have a very high threshold for anger but apparently touching my Xander will put me over that edge.
So. Don't. Do. It. Okay? That is all. I'm sorry if I sound ungracious, but I have changed my mind about my position and I hope that it will be respected. I wanted to be easy-going about this, but it ain't gonna happen.
Aeryn Sun: I will not be a slave to your hormones.
John Crichton: My hormones! Hey I was lips, you were tongue!
How can you resist that? I am such an unabashed Aeryn/John 'shipper.
Yesterday I settled down in front of the computer with a yellow legal pad. I was all geared up to take notes for feedback on a list of vids that have been languishing on my hard drive for some time now (I was inspired by the incredible feedback I got from renenet). I never got to the much deserved feedback because before I started, I decided to download some new vids.
Okay, here is a bit of trivia for you: how is Xander's Snoopy dance on BtVS 5x03 "The Replacement", shot? Answer: Xander begins the Snoopy dance and the camera is on him from the waist up. It then moves back for a full body shot, Xander spins, the camera goes to a medium shot and then cut to Willow and then back to a close-up on Xander, still dancing. How do I know this? Well, I like to vid. I like Xander. I know all sorts of information regarding where the camera is and who is in a shot on any given episode when it comes to this particular show (ask me about "Charmed" and I couldn't tell you shit). I'm not bragging - there have been hours upon hours of my life wasted watching TV and generally not contributing anything back to society. But I make videos and I enjoy it. I devote a large portion of my free time and money to vidding and I would do it even if the only people to ever see my vids were family members and unfortunate friends who make the mistake of coming over for dinner. But I have worked hard on all of the vids on the sight (well, not "Mean Sleep" - it sucked and Dawn has promised to never repost it again). A couple of months ago I found a lot of vids that featured cut up footage of my older vids. "West End Girls" and "A Change" were the most used - and this was not just one particular vidder - it was several different people at several different sites. I shrugged it off - I figured it would be impossible to stop - and those vids sucked by definition. I also wasn't as attached to the earlier vids - I look at them now and see everything that I did wrong. Then I started seeing "Golden Years" in other vids - curiously enough - just the Spike parts. I worked really hard to get those sequences down on that vid and when I see another vid that has Spike put the cards down on the table in "Life Serial" and then get rolled out the door, it really bothers me. Those 2 scenes aren't even from the same season and it took forever to get "Goodbye to Iowa" formatted so my WMM would accept it, so I feel proprietorial about that sequence. I also hate confrontation and decided that most of the offenders didn't know not to do this, and I am much to lazy to be responsible for schooling an entire plethora of people genuinely interested only in having Buffy and Spike screwing to as many different songs as possible. Since the majority of the offenders also appeared to be teenage girls who, like me, discovered that their computer came with WMM and they too could have some vidding fun, I really did not think that it would become an issue or would bother me beyond temporary annoyance. I understand that they do not have a clue about how to get source and I discussed it with Dawn. She posted headtilt.com's opinion toward the whole deal - basically don't take from other people's vids - that is a form of plagarism, here is how you get source if you want it, if you can't get a scene any other way- rather than taking scenes from earlier headtilt vids - why not email sisabet and she will help you get the original source, but if you do take source from the older vids - we won't bust you for it, and all future headtilt vids will be modified - please leave them be. I understand that the post we put up was confusing and appeared to give permission to plunder every vid I had made and will make. I intend to clear up that confusion.
Leave my vids alone. Here is why: I work damn hard on each and every vid. I'm tired of seeing my hard work set to crap. I hate confrontation - I really do - remember I'm the girl who broke off her last 2 relationships by moving. I'm beyond passive-aggressive; I'm MIA-Aggressive. At this point, however; I have reached the end of my fucking rope and I am getting ready to throw down. If you need source I have offered to help. Please understand that offer does not mean that if you send me an email asking for random clips of Willow "looking goofy" that I will get right on that - especially if I ask you to be more specific and you respond - "oh, you know, season 1-3" - Hey, if I'm gonna clip for your vid, I might as well make the whole damn thing. You will not get sympathy from me if I find out you have a cable modem and a system better than mine. Go to Hell. I understand it is damn hard getting source - you know why I understand? - because I had to go and download it as well. I've spent the better part of today trying to get my computer to recognize the new capture card Dawn bought, so I won't have to rely on the downloads as much. I have spent this whole damn weekend in front of the damn computer and I enjoy it so quit fucking with my fun! It is not like me to get this angry. But if you use Premiere as your main editing tool then I know what you have to do to steal my vids. All of the vids I have made until "Last Stand" are only available in wmv format. Premiere does not recognize that format. The only way to get it to recognize my vid is to convert that file to mpeg or avi. If you know enough to be able to convert my vid - then you should know enough to keep your goddamn hands off it.
I am really angry. It is all because of the Snoopy dance. Again on the show: medium shot, full shot spin, medium shot, Willow, close-up. In "Pink Houses" the Snoopy dance goes close-up, full shot turn, med shot. When I was editing that sequence Dawn made a crack about how long it would take someone to swipe it. Well, I downloaded this vid and Dawn watched it with me. She immediately started pointing out the "Pink Houses" shots - I was wanting to believe the vid was "inspired by" and not directly lifted until I saw the Snoopy Dance. Dammit. I hate this. I understand seeing a vid and then subconsciously doing a sequence that is similar to the vid you saw - we are all drinking at the same well. Since "Pink Houses" I've noticed a lot of vids using the Xander drool scene from "Teacher's Pet". That's great, the more Xander the better as far as I am concerned. But don't lift from Country Cavalcade. Don't lift from Last Stand. Don't Lift from Twilight Zone. Please Leave Golden Years alone. The rest of the vids have been so cannibalized I really don't care what you do with them. Hey, Let's see Clint Eastwood set to "My Heart Will Go On" and at the end Tara can say "Shhh" and you can put your name on it. That'll be fun, won't it? Oh - I know you want to make vids, too. I understand that desire. But if you make 50% of your vid by taking out various bits and pieces of mine you are a hack. How in this world can you make a comprehensive narrative out of "Everybody Went Low" and "A Change" - the damned vids are completely different!!! I am pissed off - I have a very high threshold for anger but apparently touching my Xander will put me over that edge.
So. Don't. Do. It. Okay? That is all. I'm sorry if I sound ungracious, but I have changed my mind about my position and I hope that it will be respected. I wanted to be easy-going about this, but it ain't gonna happen.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-21 08:51 pm (UTC)I actually think that Joss would like my vids. Hmmm - what vid would I show him...Maybe "Twilight Zone" - although he may like "Last Stand"
- It would be wrong to tie him up and force him to watch "End of the World as We Know It" and tell him I made that. Even if that is a major fantasy of mine. I did not make that vid. If I cut that vid up - and say I did then I should rot in the fiery furnace of hell. It is called honor among thieves (thanks Bonibaru) - If you wrote fanfic and someone else came and stole all the smutty stuff and put it in their stupid ass story - would you not be a bit miffed? You don't own the characters... so why would it be stealing? I have made the source in my vids different in many ways than the way it first aired. It is called EDITING.
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-22 07:37 am (UTC)So you credit the specific individuals who are responsible for the production of the episodes, and have their specific permission each time you use their material? I must have missed that part of your videos.
It is part of the fandom - but if you don't watch the vids - you wouldn't understand.
I do watch the vids. How do you think I ended up reading your LJ? Watched the videos, thought they were good, was interested in the person behind them.
I actually think that Joss would like my vids.
Joss isn't the person whose work you're using, for the most part. That is why I mentioned the cinematographers and editors, in addition to the directors.
If you wrote fanfic and someone else came and stole all the smutty stuff and put it in their stupid ass story - would you not be a bit miffed? You don't own the characters... so why would it be stealing?
It'd be stealing because that smutty stuff was an original creation. It didn't exist in the original scripts. As much as folks might wish we had, we've never seen Cordelia kneeling for Master Giles, or Spike slip the tongue to Xander. I would be the source for that material. Joss would be in his rights to be displeased with my use of his characters, concepts and settings and could with a single letter from an attorney force me to change those things, but the actual words would still be mine. And unfortunately for your position, the rules on re-arranging of words are far more lenient than those of video and audio.
I have made the source in my vids different in many ways than the way it first aired. It is called EDITING.
You've re-arranged the pictures that were in your source material, using sequences that suited your purpose and changing those that didn't. How is this not what others have done to your work? You add new meaning through what you do, but this is different from the original act of creation that gives proprietary rights over the material.
I'm not degrading what you have done. You've made some cool stuff. I'm just pointing out that you are not standing on any legal or moral high ground in this.
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-22 09:14 am (UTC)So you credit the specific individuals who are responsible for the production of the episodes, and have their specific permission each time you use their material? I must have missed that part of your videos.
You've got me. I've never credited a specific director, writer, or cinematographer. I can't do any of those things. I love their work. I consider being part of fandom a tribute to how much I love their work. I play with the dolls they made. They give me Buffy all dressed up and going to prom. Then I take the footage and have her dance to the favorite part of my favorite song because I'm not that creative. My sister is much more creative than me (although I will never again publically admit this) and there is things she does to the footage that truly is original. For example, in the "Twilight Zone" vid she went in frame by frame deleting every 2nd or third or forth frame to make it choppy. She edited sequences so the camera jumps forward or back. It gave the footage a special look and feel that is different from clips set to music. Lum briefly mentioned some of the ways the clips are changed "....I corrected the gamma, lightened it, changed the speed and then made a transparency with it.") These are all things done in additon to cutting the footage (again, footage made by the gods, not us)to show certain shots, actions, reactions from that fit an emotion in a song.
I realize these are fan videos, not curing cancer. Like mulder, "I'm no psychologist" but I think the anger and emotion with this subject come from someone "making something" (and you do have to believe that they did create *something* to see my point) then someone else taking that, posting it on the internet, going to board and saying "come look at what I made."
I realize that I take the work of those on the show, make something, post it on the internet and say "come look at my videos." In that sense I am a hypocrite. I don't take the work of other vidders, run it through a program to convert it to a usable form, cut it up, rearrange the clips and say it is mine.
There are lots of great vidders that inspire me, most of them have posted above. I recognize their work, their individual style and the emotions I feel watching their fan vids. To me these vids are much more powerful than anything I see on MTV or VH1 because I identify so with the characters. IMO good vids compliment the show.
Sorry for the long post...And I tried really hard not to talk about myself, which takes an effort on my part.
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-22 10:13 am (UTC)One thing you said before It'd be stealing because that smutty stuff was an original creation.
I think this is the point of disagreement. I see other vidder's work as an original creation. In order to believe people steal from vids, one has to see the vids as something of value. Generally things of value have monetary value, which of course vids do and should not. The "value" of the vid is the entertainment and inspiration it provides. To me watching vids is a very valuable experience. Last Spring, the only thing that made me get out of bed was knowing I could drink coffee and watch "Rebel Yell." Honestly. Then I could muddle through the day. I couldn't put a price on how valuable that vid is to me.
I'm not degrading what you have done. You've made some cool stuff. I'm just pointing out that you are not standing on any legal or moral high ground in this.
I agree. I have no legal grounds what-so-ever and am thankful that I live in a country where I probably won't serve jail time for unauthorized (dare I say illegal) use of footage. As for the moral high ground, I tried very hard to be the bigger person. To say, this doesn't bother me. I don't see it. Your vids suck ass so it doesn't matter that you made your vids out of pieces of my sister's vid. This person wore me down by continuing to steal and being annoying. So I forced sisabet to watch her vids, pointed out the lifted scenes (not that I had to point it out, but it makes a bigger impression when I yell the name of the vids stolen from out loud and quickly to each clip this girl used) and she blogged about her feelings. That is how this post started.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-23 10:19 am (UTC)The words would be yours? In what sense, exactly? I mean, you didn't invent them.
Yes, I'm splitting hairs, but bear with me. We might agree that the scene is yours, the paragraph, possibly even the sentence -- but you made them out of words that can't be said to belong to you and you alone. When we talk about plagiarism of written texts, we're talking about stealing patterns of usage, particular combinations of words (even though none of us invented grammar and syntax, either). The words are "yours" because you put them together in a way that's (ostensibly) unique.
That's what's new about a vid: the way vidders put available things together. No one's claiming that the footage is new. No one's claiming to have made that source material. As Dawn pointed out, vidders make decisions, and then make edits and timing choices that are the concrete product of those decisions (the way sentences, paragraphs, and scenes are the product of decisions about language). The original decisions in footage -- the editing, cinematography, and direction that you mention, as well as acting, casting, props work, hair & makeup, lighting, etc. -- can be considered part of the source, in the way that Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Chaucer, The Great Vowel Shift, and Johnson's dictionary are part of English.
I'm not denying the difference between language (which is unauthored and publicly available) and TV footage (which is authored and copyrighted). You're quite right that vidders are all swiping footage, that we're all subject to the same provisions of copyright, and that therefore there's no legal difference between Sisabet and the losers who "borrow" her vids. But I stand by the notion that there is a difference, both creatively and intellectually, between 1. making decisions about what to do with that source (vidding or writing) and 2. taking someone else's decisions and calling them one's own (plagiarizing).
no subject
Date: 2002-10-23 01:00 pm (UTC)ah true. point conceded. It's the pattern that is my mine. As you concede in your next paragraph.
The original decisions in footage -- the editing, cinematography, and direction that you mention, as well as acting, casting, props work, hair & makeup, lighting, etc. -- can be considered part of the source, in the way that Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Chaucer, The Great Vowel Shift, and Johnson's dictionary are part of English.
But how are the decisions made by the 1st generation vidders any different from the decisions made by the original production team? Aren't the 2nd generation vidders just making more of the same decisions? We aren't debating the quality of these decisions - we're talking about who has the right to make them.
But I stand by the notion that there is a difference, both creatively and intellectually, between 1. making decisions about what to do with that source (vidding or writing) and 2. taking someone else's decisions and calling them one's own (plagiarizing).
And I'll stand by my notion that when you use someone else's video footage, you're falling into category two. When I create those smutty scenes in my theoretical fanfic, I'm creating a new pattern unrelated to where I learned/acquired the words from. When the fan videos are created, they reuse distinctive scenes from the source material. If you can re-arrange those images in such a way that the source is no longer relevant, then you've made them yours. This carries over nicely into audio sampling as well. All music is made up of the same basic sets of sound ie human hearing. It's the arranged pattern that is important.
To quote a very smart friend of mine, "You can make a mix tape, or be a dj, but neither one makes you a musician."
no subject
Date: 2002-10-24 08:01 pm (UTC)Agreed, and neatly put, but what exactly is the parallel being drawn here? If your point is that being a vidder is like making a mix tape out of other people's songs, and that the vidder is not the person who made the footage (performed the songs), then I agree with you completely -- but this doesn't seem to be what's actually at stake in your earlier critique.
To extend the analogy: I don't think anyone *would* confuse mix tapes with musicianship, and I for one would certainly acknowledge that a great deal more talent and skill (not to mention time and money) goes into making an original album (well, most albums) than making a mix. But if I put a lot of thought into a mix, got the timing just right so there's not a lot of blank space at the end of the tape, etc., I would be peeved if someone swiped it, copied half of it without changing it, and said it was entirely theirs.
By the way -- I'd like to consider this conversation, but perhaps we should move it to one of our own LJs...?
Sigh.
Date: 2002-10-23 11:22 am (UTC)