I'm On A Rant
Oct. 20th, 2002 08:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sisabetThis was going to be the weekend I got things done. This has turned into the weekend I hid from the things that needed doing. Hey - some advice - if you are stressed and it is a moderately drizzly and gray Sunday, watch Buffy early season 4. Absolutely will make you happy it is autumn. I think it is because that "school just started" vibe is sustained longer because of the college introduction, but I enjoyed those eps playing in the background today. Right now I've got Farscape, "Look at the Princess" parts 1-3 playing. Hee...
Aeryn Sun: I will not be a slave to your hormones.
John Crichton: My hormones! Hey I was lips, you were tongue!
How can you resist that? I am such an unabashed Aeryn/John 'shipper.
Yesterday I settled down in front of the computer with a yellow legal pad. I was all geared up to take notes for feedback on a list of vids that have been languishing on my hard drive for some time now (I was inspired by the incredible feedback I got from renenet). I never got to the much deserved feedback because before I started, I decided to download some new vids.
Okay, here is a bit of trivia for you: how is Xander's Snoopy dance on BtVS 5x03 "The Replacement", shot? Answer: Xander begins the Snoopy dance and the camera is on him from the waist up. It then moves back for a full body shot, Xander spins, the camera goes to a medium shot and then cut to Willow and then back to a close-up on Xander, still dancing. How do I know this? Well, I like to vid. I like Xander. I know all sorts of information regarding where the camera is and who is in a shot on any given episode when it comes to this particular show (ask me about "Charmed" and I couldn't tell you shit). I'm not bragging - there have been hours upon hours of my life wasted watching TV and generally not contributing anything back to society. But I make videos and I enjoy it. I devote a large portion of my free time and money to vidding and I would do it even if the only people to ever see my vids were family members and unfortunate friends who make the mistake of coming over for dinner. But I have worked hard on all of the vids on the sight (well, not "Mean Sleep" - it sucked and Dawn has promised to never repost it again). A couple of months ago I found a lot of vids that featured cut up footage of my older vids. "West End Girls" and "A Change" were the most used - and this was not just one particular vidder - it was several different people at several different sites. I shrugged it off - I figured it would be impossible to stop - and those vids sucked by definition. I also wasn't as attached to the earlier vids - I look at them now and see everything that I did wrong. Then I started seeing "Golden Years" in other vids - curiously enough - just the Spike parts. I worked really hard to get those sequences down on that vid and when I see another vid that has Spike put the cards down on the table in "Life Serial" and then get rolled out the door, it really bothers me. Those 2 scenes aren't even from the same season and it took forever to get "Goodbye to Iowa" formatted so my WMM would accept it, so I feel proprietorial about that sequence. I also hate confrontation and decided that most of the offenders didn't know not to do this, and I am much to lazy to be responsible for schooling an entire plethora of people genuinely interested only in having Buffy and Spike screwing to as many different songs as possible. Since the majority of the offenders also appeared to be teenage girls who, like me, discovered that their computer came with WMM and they too could have some vidding fun, I really did not think that it would become an issue or would bother me beyond temporary annoyance. I understand that they do not have a clue about how to get source and I discussed it with Dawn. She posted headtilt.com's opinion toward the whole deal - basically don't take from other people's vids - that is a form of plagarism, here is how you get source if you want it, if you can't get a scene any other way- rather than taking scenes from earlier headtilt vids - why not email sisabet and she will help you get the original source, but if you do take source from the older vids - we won't bust you for it, and all future headtilt vids will be modified - please leave them be. I understand that the post we put up was confusing and appeared to give permission to plunder every vid I had made and will make. I intend to clear up that confusion.
Leave my vids alone. Here is why: I work damn hard on each and every vid. I'm tired of seeing my hard work set to crap. I hate confrontation - I really do - remember I'm the girl who broke off her last 2 relationships by moving. I'm beyond passive-aggressive; I'm MIA-Aggressive. At this point, however; I have reached the end of my fucking rope and I am getting ready to throw down. If you need source I have offered to help. Please understand that offer does not mean that if you send me an email asking for random clips of Willow "looking goofy" that I will get right on that - especially if I ask you to be more specific and you respond - "oh, you know, season 1-3" - Hey, if I'm gonna clip for your vid, I might as well make the whole damn thing. You will not get sympathy from me if I find out you have a cable modem and a system better than mine. Go to Hell. I understand it is damn hard getting source - you know why I understand? - because I had to go and download it as well. I've spent the better part of today trying to get my computer to recognize the new capture card Dawn bought, so I won't have to rely on the downloads as much. I have spent this whole damn weekend in front of the damn computer and I enjoy it so quit fucking with my fun! It is not like me to get this angry. But if you use Premiere as your main editing tool then I know what you have to do to steal my vids. All of the vids I have made until "Last Stand" are only available in wmv format. Premiere does not recognize that format. The only way to get it to recognize my vid is to convert that file to mpeg or avi. If you know enough to be able to convert my vid - then you should know enough to keep your goddamn hands off it.
I am really angry. It is all because of the Snoopy dance. Again on the show: medium shot, full shot spin, medium shot, Willow, close-up. In "Pink Houses" the Snoopy dance goes close-up, full shot turn, med shot. When I was editing that sequence Dawn made a crack about how long it would take someone to swipe it. Well, I downloaded this vid and Dawn watched it with me. She immediately started pointing out the "Pink Houses" shots - I was wanting to believe the vid was "inspired by" and not directly lifted until I saw the Snoopy Dance. Dammit. I hate this. I understand seeing a vid and then subconsciously doing a sequence that is similar to the vid you saw - we are all drinking at the same well. Since "Pink Houses" I've noticed a lot of vids using the Xander drool scene from "Teacher's Pet". That's great, the more Xander the better as far as I am concerned. But don't lift from Country Cavalcade. Don't lift from Last Stand. Don't Lift from Twilight Zone. Please Leave Golden Years alone. The rest of the vids have been so cannibalized I really don't care what you do with them. Hey, Let's see Clint Eastwood set to "My Heart Will Go On" and at the end Tara can say "Shhh" and you can put your name on it. That'll be fun, won't it? Oh - I know you want to make vids, too. I understand that desire. But if you make 50% of your vid by taking out various bits and pieces of mine you are a hack. How in this world can you make a comprehensive narrative out of "Everybody Went Low" and "A Change" - the damned vids are completely different!!! I am pissed off - I have a very high threshold for anger but apparently touching my Xander will put me over that edge.
So. Don't. Do. It. Okay? That is all. I'm sorry if I sound ungracious, but I have changed my mind about my position and I hope that it will be respected. I wanted to be easy-going about this, but it ain't gonna happen.
Aeryn Sun: I will not be a slave to your hormones.
John Crichton: My hormones! Hey I was lips, you were tongue!
How can you resist that? I am such an unabashed Aeryn/John 'shipper.
Yesterday I settled down in front of the computer with a yellow legal pad. I was all geared up to take notes for feedback on a list of vids that have been languishing on my hard drive for some time now (I was inspired by the incredible feedback I got from renenet). I never got to the much deserved feedback because before I started, I decided to download some new vids.
Okay, here is a bit of trivia for you: how is Xander's Snoopy dance on BtVS 5x03 "The Replacement", shot? Answer: Xander begins the Snoopy dance and the camera is on him from the waist up. It then moves back for a full body shot, Xander spins, the camera goes to a medium shot and then cut to Willow and then back to a close-up on Xander, still dancing. How do I know this? Well, I like to vid. I like Xander. I know all sorts of information regarding where the camera is and who is in a shot on any given episode when it comes to this particular show (ask me about "Charmed" and I couldn't tell you shit). I'm not bragging - there have been hours upon hours of my life wasted watching TV and generally not contributing anything back to society. But I make videos and I enjoy it. I devote a large portion of my free time and money to vidding and I would do it even if the only people to ever see my vids were family members and unfortunate friends who make the mistake of coming over for dinner. But I have worked hard on all of the vids on the sight (well, not "Mean Sleep" - it sucked and Dawn has promised to never repost it again). A couple of months ago I found a lot of vids that featured cut up footage of my older vids. "West End Girls" and "A Change" were the most used - and this was not just one particular vidder - it was several different people at several different sites. I shrugged it off - I figured it would be impossible to stop - and those vids sucked by definition. I also wasn't as attached to the earlier vids - I look at them now and see everything that I did wrong. Then I started seeing "Golden Years" in other vids - curiously enough - just the Spike parts. I worked really hard to get those sequences down on that vid and when I see another vid that has Spike put the cards down on the table in "Life Serial" and then get rolled out the door, it really bothers me. Those 2 scenes aren't even from the same season and it took forever to get "Goodbye to Iowa" formatted so my WMM would accept it, so I feel proprietorial about that sequence. I also hate confrontation and decided that most of the offenders didn't know not to do this, and I am much to lazy to be responsible for schooling an entire plethora of people genuinely interested only in having Buffy and Spike screwing to as many different songs as possible. Since the majority of the offenders also appeared to be teenage girls who, like me, discovered that their computer came with WMM and they too could have some vidding fun, I really did not think that it would become an issue or would bother me beyond temporary annoyance. I understand that they do not have a clue about how to get source and I discussed it with Dawn. She posted headtilt.com's opinion toward the whole deal - basically don't take from other people's vids - that is a form of plagarism, here is how you get source if you want it, if you can't get a scene any other way- rather than taking scenes from earlier headtilt vids - why not email sisabet and she will help you get the original source, but if you do take source from the older vids - we won't bust you for it, and all future headtilt vids will be modified - please leave them be. I understand that the post we put up was confusing and appeared to give permission to plunder every vid I had made and will make. I intend to clear up that confusion.
Leave my vids alone. Here is why: I work damn hard on each and every vid. I'm tired of seeing my hard work set to crap. I hate confrontation - I really do - remember I'm the girl who broke off her last 2 relationships by moving. I'm beyond passive-aggressive; I'm MIA-Aggressive. At this point, however; I have reached the end of my fucking rope and I am getting ready to throw down. If you need source I have offered to help. Please understand that offer does not mean that if you send me an email asking for random clips of Willow "looking goofy" that I will get right on that - especially if I ask you to be more specific and you respond - "oh, you know, season 1-3" - Hey, if I'm gonna clip for your vid, I might as well make the whole damn thing. You will not get sympathy from me if I find out you have a cable modem and a system better than mine. Go to Hell. I understand it is damn hard getting source - you know why I understand? - because I had to go and download it as well. I've spent the better part of today trying to get my computer to recognize the new capture card Dawn bought, so I won't have to rely on the downloads as much. I have spent this whole damn weekend in front of the damn computer and I enjoy it so quit fucking with my fun! It is not like me to get this angry. But if you use Premiere as your main editing tool then I know what you have to do to steal my vids. All of the vids I have made until "Last Stand" are only available in wmv format. Premiere does not recognize that format. The only way to get it to recognize my vid is to convert that file to mpeg or avi. If you know enough to be able to convert my vid - then you should know enough to keep your goddamn hands off it.
I am really angry. It is all because of the Snoopy dance. Again on the show: medium shot, full shot spin, medium shot, Willow, close-up. In "Pink Houses" the Snoopy dance goes close-up, full shot turn, med shot. When I was editing that sequence Dawn made a crack about how long it would take someone to swipe it. Well, I downloaded this vid and Dawn watched it with me. She immediately started pointing out the "Pink Houses" shots - I was wanting to believe the vid was "inspired by" and not directly lifted until I saw the Snoopy Dance. Dammit. I hate this. I understand seeing a vid and then subconsciously doing a sequence that is similar to the vid you saw - we are all drinking at the same well. Since "Pink Houses" I've noticed a lot of vids using the Xander drool scene from "Teacher's Pet". That's great, the more Xander the better as far as I am concerned. But don't lift from Country Cavalcade. Don't lift from Last Stand. Don't Lift from Twilight Zone. Please Leave Golden Years alone. The rest of the vids have been so cannibalized I really don't care what you do with them. Hey, Let's see Clint Eastwood set to "My Heart Will Go On" and at the end Tara can say "Shhh" and you can put your name on it. That'll be fun, won't it? Oh - I know you want to make vids, too. I understand that desire. But if you make 50% of your vid by taking out various bits and pieces of mine you are a hack. How in this world can you make a comprehensive narrative out of "Everybody Went Low" and "A Change" - the damned vids are completely different!!! I am pissed off - I have a very high threshold for anger but apparently touching my Xander will put me over that edge.
So. Don't. Do. It. Okay? That is all. I'm sorry if I sound ungracious, but I have changed my mind about my position and I hope that it will be respected. I wanted to be easy-going about this, but it ain't gonna happen.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2002-10-20 08:26 pm (UTC)Rock on, fellow vidder. Rock the fuck on.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 12:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-10-20 08:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-10-20 11:45 pm (UTC)YAY for Mean Sleep!!
AHH! Okay, I know you didn't work hard on Mean Sleep, and compared to your other vids, you think it sucks.. but I like it enough to keep it on my hard drive for periodical viewing. Here's why:
The thing that realy gets me is the way the song gets really quiet during the bathroom scene. Dawn was right; it does win the award for "most romantic use" of that scene. I like it because it gives me an eerie feeling inside every time I watch it. I also like it because it's to a song a would never like if there wasn't a vid to it, but as always you helped open me up to liking it.
Is this what a guilty pleasure feels like? ::shrug::
Re: YAY for Mean Sleep!!
Date: 2002-10-20 11:55 pm (UTC)I cringe when I watch "Mean Sleep" now - I think I used the whole attempted rape footage waayyy too lightly. I also probably shouldn't have addressed that scene from Spike's POV (Oh poor Spike - he tried to rape his ex-girlfriend and now he feels really bad). I will one day finally be able to do a Spuffy vid. Maybe. I feel really bad because besides here's luck's last vid- I wanted to give feedback to you on your last 2 vids and then I got all distracted and self-absorbed. I'm like Buffy in season 4. Next week - feedback (spoiler: LOVE THE RABBIT)
no subject
Date: 2002-10-20 10:06 pm (UTC)I'm mad, now. And I'm plenty confrontational for the both of us.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-20 11:56 pm (UTC)Really? 'Cause there is also this guy that works in building that is seriously working my nerves...
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 12:02 am (UTC)drive-by commenting
Date: 2002-10-20 10:10 pm (UTC)And, heh. I've found that people who don't have the patience to download their materials don't have the patience necessary to actually, you know, edit the footage together in a creative, beat-oriented, comprehensive-narrative-type way.
Since the majority of the offenders also appeared to be teenage girls
This part of the excuse holds no water with me since I am a teenage girl, and I am perfectly capable of downloading the full episodes sans handholding. But, yeah. I'm with you on the non-confrontive aspect. I'll just exhale mournfully and take solace in the fact that the video will, in all likelihood, have sucked.
(Actually, I do sometimes get more upset if I somehow find out that the offender is a teenage girl. Because there's an element of, raise up! fulfill your potential, fully, my sisters! But that's definitely a personal issue.)
Re: drive-by commenting
Date: 2002-10-20 11:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-10-20 10:15 pm (UTC)Hmmm...vigilante posse, did I say? Perhaps I've been watching too much Firely along with a certain vid about gay gunslingers...
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 12:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 11:53 am (UTC)Probably, but they compliment one another so well. It's like when I visit my grandfather and he's watching a Clint Eastwood movie marathon on TV--you just have to relax into the saddle and go with it.
Where do we sign up?
Date: 2002-10-21 06:49 pm (UTC)Count me in on the posse, okay? sisabet, if this is hitting your discomfort buttons then please, allow us to carry the body par...*ahem*, burden for you. Please?
Now, about Firefly and a vid about gay gunslingers? Apparently I've missed this one. Please, in the name of mercy, tell me where I can find this wonder. Oh, please. :)
Okay, off to watch "Selfless" -- then I'll be back. Thank ever so, sckpt! And speaking of selfless, she sent it to me, in spite of being oh-so sickly herself.::::::sends healing thoughts, words, and prayers her direction::::::::
Re: Where do we sign up?
Date: 2002-10-21 08:19 pm (UTC)Oops! Sorry to disappoint. But you haven't missed anything. That was just a reference to me being influenced by too much Old West-themed entertainment, such as (separately) Firefly and Sisabet's "Last Stand" vid (the one done to the Gayest Gunslinger Song ever, as it's been dubbed).
As for where to sign up...I already had you pegged as a charter member, if not an actual ring-leader. ;) Bring an extra horse for the body...*ahem*, burden, all right?
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 12:43 am (UTC)Anyways, Sisabet, your anger is totally justified. I've never actually had anything taken from me, fic or vid, (Seeing as I only have four vids online, and 2.1 fics...). And I too am way to passive agressive. But I'll admit to getting a tiny bit miffed when I make a video and the next day someone has made one to the very same song. So again, anger totally justified.
One of my biggest problems with vidding is that I am worried I will subconciously copy someone. And you guys at headtilt, and Valerie, are what I aspire to. But there's a huge difference, like you said, between being inspired by and down right taking someone elses stuff. I am really sorry it had to happen to you and ruin your day. If it cheers you up any, your Restless vid is my all time fav. */fangirl*
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 06:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 05:42 am (UTC)I know just how you feel. When I finally took a stand, a *loud* stand, I managed to get outraged emails chock full of "it's only a hobby" to "you'd never understand why I have to do this because my life sucks." No kidding. Saying that thievery is "only a hobby" doesn't negate that it's thievery. And your life must really suck if you're so crazy as to think that circumstances excuse theft. (not going to go all Jean Valjean on anyone here)
I have never checked to see if anyone has taken clips from me. I'm sure that some have, and I'd know immediately if I looked, because I manipulate my images a hell of a lot. I think it would be ummm, interesting, for me to see a clip of mine (where I corrected the gamma, lightened it, changed the speed and then made a transparency with it) in another vid.
I don't want to look. I'd just have to kill someone.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 06:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 10:57 am (UTC)All of the vids I have made until "Last Stand" are only available in wmv format. Premiere does not recognize that format. The only way to get it to recognize my vid is to convert that file to mpeg or avi.
You made a very good point, it takes a lot of work and know-how to convert wmv or rm vids into a good usable format. If you have to convert it, you should know to at least ask for permission (or beg for the source).
And, I'm with you on not being able to vid Spuffy romance right now.
Tania
Re:
Date: 2002-10-21 04:47 pm (UTC)Spuffy romance is dead in the water. Maybe there is hope for Spike/Buffy maturely dealing with shit vids. 'Cept they don't usually...
Bastards!!
Date: 2002-10-21 06:37 pm (UTC)And then she should really get in trouble. I have a friend with an Uncle Guido, metaphorically speaking -- shall I fetch him up for you?
I am so not kidding.
{{{{{{{{{{sisabet}}}}}}}}}}}}
Re: Bastards!!
Date: 2002-10-21 06:46 pm (UTC)Re: Bastards!!
Date: 2002-10-21 07:07 pm (UTC)Love you guys right back. :) And asshole is the least of what I'd like to call this twit (actually I'd like to call her that word with just one vowel changed, but I'm not sure what LJ's TOS are :). Anything that I can do to help, y'all just yelp. I've got all kinds of righteous anger going on here, and if anything I'm aggressive/more aggressive, so if y'all do decide to bitch-slap her, do let me know. Please.
At the least I wish y'all would consider naming the name of the Snoopy Dance thief. Like you said, changing that clip the way you did took all kinds of time, care, and personal skill, and the thought that there's a frankenstein vid out there, hiding with that bit sewn on, just pisses me off more than I can say. *grrrr* *arrgghhh*
Apropos of nothing, I wish there was a way to add words to the web-based spell checker. It keeps telling me that vid and vidding aren't words. Heh.
Okay, back in a few, gals. I'm weak and "Selfless" is calling my name.
Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-21 08:34 pm (UTC)Your sampling and splicing is just one generation closer to the original material than the people you are complaining about. Unless you're shooting new footage, you're not doing anything original. There's nothing wrong with that - just be honest about it.
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-21 08:51 pm (UTC)I actually think that Joss would like my vids. Hmmm - what vid would I show him...Maybe "Twilight Zone" - although he may like "Last Stand"
- It would be wrong to tie him up and force him to watch "End of the World as We Know It" and tell him I made that. Even if that is a major fantasy of mine. I did not make that vid. If I cut that vid up - and say I did then I should rot in the fiery furnace of hell. It is called honor among thieves (thanks Bonibaru) - If you wrote fanfic and someone else came and stole all the smutty stuff and put it in their stupid ass story - would you not be a bit miffed? You don't own the characters... so why would it be stealing? I have made the source in my vids different in many ways than the way it first aired. It is called EDITING.
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-22 07:37 am (UTC)So you credit the specific individuals who are responsible for the production of the episodes, and have their specific permission each time you use their material? I must have missed that part of your videos.
It is part of the fandom - but if you don't watch the vids - you wouldn't understand.
I do watch the vids. How do you think I ended up reading your LJ? Watched the videos, thought they were good, was interested in the person behind them.
I actually think that Joss would like my vids.
Joss isn't the person whose work you're using, for the most part. That is why I mentioned the cinematographers and editors, in addition to the directors.
If you wrote fanfic and someone else came and stole all the smutty stuff and put it in their stupid ass story - would you not be a bit miffed? You don't own the characters... so why would it be stealing?
It'd be stealing because that smutty stuff was an original creation. It didn't exist in the original scripts. As much as folks might wish we had, we've never seen Cordelia kneeling for Master Giles, or Spike slip the tongue to Xander. I would be the source for that material. Joss would be in his rights to be displeased with my use of his characters, concepts and settings and could with a single letter from an attorney force me to change those things, but the actual words would still be mine. And unfortunately for your position, the rules on re-arranging of words are far more lenient than those of video and audio.
I have made the source in my vids different in many ways than the way it first aired. It is called EDITING.
You've re-arranged the pictures that were in your source material, using sequences that suited your purpose and changing those that didn't. How is this not what others have done to your work? You add new meaning through what you do, but this is different from the original act of creation that gives proprietary rights over the material.
I'm not degrading what you have done. You've made some cool stuff. I'm just pointing out that you are not standing on any legal or moral high ground in this.
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-22 09:14 am (UTC)So you credit the specific individuals who are responsible for the production of the episodes, and have their specific permission each time you use their material? I must have missed that part of your videos.
You've got me. I've never credited a specific director, writer, or cinematographer. I can't do any of those things. I love their work. I consider being part of fandom a tribute to how much I love their work. I play with the dolls they made. They give me Buffy all dressed up and going to prom. Then I take the footage and have her dance to the favorite part of my favorite song because I'm not that creative. My sister is much more creative than me (although I will never again publically admit this) and there is things she does to the footage that truly is original. For example, in the "Twilight Zone" vid she went in frame by frame deleting every 2nd or third or forth frame to make it choppy. She edited sequences so the camera jumps forward or back. It gave the footage a special look and feel that is different from clips set to music. Lum briefly mentioned some of the ways the clips are changed "....I corrected the gamma, lightened it, changed the speed and then made a transparency with it.") These are all things done in additon to cutting the footage (again, footage made by the gods, not us)to show certain shots, actions, reactions from that fit an emotion in a song.
I realize these are fan videos, not curing cancer. Like mulder, "I'm no psychologist" but I think the anger and emotion with this subject come from someone "making something" (and you do have to believe that they did create *something* to see my point) then someone else taking that, posting it on the internet, going to board and saying "come look at what I made."
I realize that I take the work of those on the show, make something, post it on the internet and say "come look at my videos." In that sense I am a hypocrite. I don't take the work of other vidders, run it through a program to convert it to a usable form, cut it up, rearrange the clips and say it is mine.
There are lots of great vidders that inspire me, most of them have posted above. I recognize their work, their individual style and the emotions I feel watching their fan vids. To me these vids are much more powerful than anything I see on MTV or VH1 because I identify so with the characters. IMO good vids compliment the show.
Sorry for the long post...And I tried really hard not to talk about myself, which takes an effort on my part.
Re: Pot, meet Kettle.
Date: 2002-10-22 10:13 am (UTC)One thing you said before It'd be stealing because that smutty stuff was an original creation.
I think this is the point of disagreement. I see other vidder's work as an original creation. In order to believe people steal from vids, one has to see the vids as something of value. Generally things of value have monetary value, which of course vids do and should not. The "value" of the vid is the entertainment and inspiration it provides. To me watching vids is a very valuable experience. Last Spring, the only thing that made me get out of bed was knowing I could drink coffee and watch "Rebel Yell." Honestly. Then I could muddle through the day. I couldn't put a price on how valuable that vid is to me.
I'm not degrading what you have done. You've made some cool stuff. I'm just pointing out that you are not standing on any legal or moral high ground in this.
I agree. I have no legal grounds what-so-ever and am thankful that I live in a country where I probably won't serve jail time for unauthorized (dare I say illegal) use of footage. As for the moral high ground, I tried very hard to be the bigger person. To say, this doesn't bother me. I don't see it. Your vids suck ass so it doesn't matter that you made your vids out of pieces of my sister's vid. This person wore me down by continuing to steal and being annoying. So I forced sisabet to watch her vids, pointed out the lifted scenes (not that I had to point it out, but it makes a bigger impression when I yell the name of the vids stolen from out loud and quickly to each clip this girl used) and she blogged about her feelings. That is how this post started.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-23 10:19 am (UTC)The words would be yours? In what sense, exactly? I mean, you didn't invent them.
Yes, I'm splitting hairs, but bear with me. We might agree that the scene is yours, the paragraph, possibly even the sentence -- but you made them out of words that can't be said to belong to you and you alone. When we talk about plagiarism of written texts, we're talking about stealing patterns of usage, particular combinations of words (even though none of us invented grammar and syntax, either). The words are "yours" because you put them together in a way that's (ostensibly) unique.
That's what's new about a vid: the way vidders put available things together. No one's claiming that the footage is new. No one's claiming to have made that source material. As Dawn pointed out, vidders make decisions, and then make edits and timing choices that are the concrete product of those decisions (the way sentences, paragraphs, and scenes are the product of decisions about language). The original decisions in footage -- the editing, cinematography, and direction that you mention, as well as acting, casting, props work, hair & makeup, lighting, etc. -- can be considered part of the source, in the way that Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Chaucer, The Great Vowel Shift, and Johnson's dictionary are part of English.
I'm not denying the difference between language (which is unauthored and publicly available) and TV footage (which is authored and copyrighted). You're quite right that vidders are all swiping footage, that we're all subject to the same provisions of copyright, and that therefore there's no legal difference between Sisabet and the losers who "borrow" her vids. But I stand by the notion that there is a difference, both creatively and intellectually, between 1. making decisions about what to do with that source (vidding or writing) and 2. taking someone else's decisions and calling them one's own (plagiarizing).
no subject
Date: 2002-10-23 01:00 pm (UTC)ah true. point conceded. It's the pattern that is my mine. As you concede in your next paragraph.
The original decisions in footage -- the editing, cinematography, and direction that you mention, as well as acting, casting, props work, hair & makeup, lighting, etc. -- can be considered part of the source, in the way that Latin, Anglo-Saxon, Chaucer, The Great Vowel Shift, and Johnson's dictionary are part of English.
But how are the decisions made by the 1st generation vidders any different from the decisions made by the original production team? Aren't the 2nd generation vidders just making more of the same decisions? We aren't debating the quality of these decisions - we're talking about who has the right to make them.
But I stand by the notion that there is a difference, both creatively and intellectually, between 1. making decisions about what to do with that source (vidding or writing) and 2. taking someone else's decisions and calling them one's own (plagiarizing).
And I'll stand by my notion that when you use someone else's video footage, you're falling into category two. When I create those smutty scenes in my theoretical fanfic, I'm creating a new pattern unrelated to where I learned/acquired the words from. When the fan videos are created, they reuse distinctive scenes from the source material. If you can re-arrange those images in such a way that the source is no longer relevant, then you've made them yours. This carries over nicely into audio sampling as well. All music is made up of the same basic sets of sound ie human hearing. It's the arranged pattern that is important.
To quote a very smart friend of mine, "You can make a mix tape, or be a dj, but neither one makes you a musician."
no subject
Date: 2002-10-24 08:01 pm (UTC)Agreed, and neatly put, but what exactly is the parallel being drawn here? If your point is that being a vidder is like making a mix tape out of other people's songs, and that the vidder is not the person who made the footage (performed the songs), then I agree with you completely -- but this doesn't seem to be what's actually at stake in your earlier critique.
To extend the analogy: I don't think anyone *would* confuse mix tapes with musicianship, and I for one would certainly acknowledge that a great deal more talent and skill (not to mention time and money) goes into making an original album (well, most albums) than making a mix. But if I put a lot of thought into a mix, got the timing just right so there's not a lot of blank space at the end of the tape, etc., I would be peeved if someone swiped it, copied half of it without changing it, and said it was entirely theirs.
By the way -- I'd like to consider this conversation, but perhaps we should move it to one of our own LJs...?
Sigh.
Date: 2002-10-23 11:22 am (UTC)Say thank you to the good Doctor...
Date: 2002-10-23 01:09 pm (UTC)False. U.S. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called "derivative works" -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you write a story using settings or characters from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission.
10 Big Myths about Copyright explained (http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html)
I think you missed the point
Date: 2002-10-23 08:13 pm (UTC)There are hard and fast rules in the fan vid community and the #1 rule is you don't steal footage from another vid.
Re: I think you missed the point
Date: 2002-10-24 08:57 am (UTC)So it would have been ok if you were given credit? And once again, your work doesn't credit ME, so...
I don't think it is any more illegitimate than fanfiction but I also don't want to get mired in a discussion regarding copyright infringement because it is boring.
Well, you ever notice those disclaimers that are on -every- single piece of fan fiction, in every genre? The ones that give credit to creators and copyright owners? They still don't make fan fiction 'legal', which is why Anne Rice aggressively prosecutes anyone who tries to write Lestat fanfic, but they attempt to show 'good faith' by acknowledging the creative and legal reality of the situation. As for copyright law being boring, I wonder how you find something is so relevant to your hobby to be boring... I always find that when I understand exactly how I'm breaking the law, it's much more fun to do so.
If you don't think it is a legitimate form of expression, that is fine.
It is a legitimate form of expression. I've praised your work in specific several times during this debate. I'm just arguing that you are currently advocating a highly hypocritical position with regards to what is 'ok' to use as source material, and trying to show the logical flaws in it.
There are hard and fast rules in the fan vid community
Is there a web page or something where they are written down? I've been debating trying my hand at the fan video thing and I'd really hate to break a rule just because I didn't know about it.
and the #1 rule is you don't steal footage from another vid.
You mean, steal footage from another fan vid?
My position is simple - Give explicit credit for the footage you use, regardless of source. That's what I'll do if I try my hand at it. If I don't want others to use my work as source, I won't distribute it to the web. (Ever notice that ME doesn't post their stuff to the web? Someone has to capture it in explicit violation of the 'no unauthorized copies' statement that is on every episode...)
Re: I think you missed the point
Date: 2002-10-24 02:00 pm (UTC)If you respect the other vidders and the time and effort that is involved in creating a fan vid then you would not say that I am a hypocrite for getting pissed of when someone makes a vid comprised primarily of footage from my fan vid. You say that you have enjoyed the videos on this site - do you have any idea how much work is entailed making those vids? Yes, the original source is not mine - the finished product is not mine - that is not the point. Fan vids all start from the same place: The original source, which for me is BtVS and AtS. Where you go from there is limited only by your creativity and technical expertise.
As it stands the original source is not readily adaptable to a music video (a fan music video - excuse me)- you must change it in many different ways if you want the vid in your head to be the vid you make. I would love it if you decided to make fan videos. I offer you my help in any way possible - email me at sisabet@yahoo.com and we can discuss vidding at length. I think you would then understand the level of involvement that the process requires. No good video is made overnight. It takes time and effort. There are rules in this community - just like any other community. However, vidders as a rule are extremely nice and speaking from experience, they will take newbies in readily and explain the ropes.
Generally I review each episode that I feel should be addressed in the vid and take the clips I think will work. It is a painstaking process, but I think it makes my vids better overall - I try to aim for a fresh look every time (although there is a shot of Xander looking a Anya in Graduation Day II - he looks down and then takes a step back and the camera does this great pan around him and I know I use that shot way too often - but I love it. I've never seen another legitimate vidder use this shot - I feel like I discovered it. Silly, to be sure, but then again I can be silly on many levels. I have seen this shot in other vids - but they are always an amalgam of West End Girls or Broken Hearted Savior.)
Again, I was upset and I ranted on my LJ after I read a post at a board I frequent that basically said "Come look at my new vids - I worked really hard on them." Obviously I am the one that worked hard on those vids (fan vids, of course - and I'm sure the fine folks at ME also worked very hard as well. Yes, hard work all around). It has happened before and I ignored it. I feel that rampant lifting of my vids cheapens the amount of work I put into this hobby and makes me not want to do it at all - or not share it (you do raise an excellent point about not posting my vids online. I have considered it, but at this point I feel I need the feedback internet posting ensures in order to improve my skills. I am still a newbie myself. I started vidding back in April and only started using Premiere within the last few months).
I understand your point, really I do. I also disagree with it, respectfully. I realize that you feel that I and other vidders are major hypocrites because we use source we did not create for our vids, but we get upset when someone takes our vids and says that they made them. No one (meaning fan video makers) made the original source, right? I get it - but you don't understand my point and I don't think this debate will change your mind - or mine. I wish I could explain this better than I have.
Again, if you are interested in vidding - or in learning more about the subject of fan vidding as a whole, please contact me and I will let you know everything that I know (should be a short lesson). If you want to debate the logics of my rant or copyright issues, I really lack the time and energy for the argument, so you win. Go you.
Re: I think you missed the point
Date: 2002-10-24 03:16 pm (UTC)http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=bonibaru&itemid=56231
It's not illegal to steal from a thief, of course. But it doesn't make you very popular with the vidding community. And it is a community, after all; people with similar interests talking together and networking.
ME posts things to the web: Firefly has tons of stuff up at their official website. It's Fox, WB, and UPN lawyers that keep a tight rein on everything else. Stuff that's already popular, you know. ME doesn't care if the fans take ownership of the characters and source and manipulate them for *non profit* enjoyment. The studio lawyers, however, get bored on occasion and take down fan sites for vidding and fanfic and manips.
That scene in the "Twilight Zone" video where she jump cuts the four shots of Xander with the guitar in his rock star dream? That took a lot of work to put together. That is Sis's interpretation of the original footage. If someone took that sequence and put it in their own video, people who see the video will assume that they made that sequence. Nobody is foolish enough to think that they went and shot the scenes themselves - it's known, and understood, that the original source is made by the studios and producers, just as much as the song is made by the recording artist. She certainly didn't write or sing "Twilight Zone". Don't Take Without Asking is simply considered good form, polite, and *respectable*, and failing to do so garners you the unfortunate position of being unliked by your peers in the thieving community.
Honor Among Thieves was the title of the workshop at VividCon and I am still hoping to get notes from that panel from someone who was there.
Re: I think you missed the point
Date: 2002-10-24 03:19 pm (UTC)God, I shouldn't be doing this
Date: 2002-10-24 04:40 pm (UTC)In particular, you can create a work based on another copyrighted work (a "derivative work") and, if it qualifies as a fair use, it's yours. This is not to say that vids are fair uses; I suspect there's a reasonable case to be made for that, but not as strong as for much fanfic because of the special solicitousness courts have for reproductions of audiovisual works. (For more on fair use and fanfic, you can read my article (http://www.tushnet.com) in the Loyola of L.A. Entertainment Law Journal -- click on "law" to get the text.) The next legal step would be whether what the "plagiarist" took from you was enough to itself be infringement. But the real point is that not everything immoral -- especially by the standards of a particular subculture -- is illegal, and occasionally vice versa. I'm basically sympathetic to the claim that participants in vidding culture should not deliberately copy entire sequences from other vids.
Re: God, I shouldn't be doing this
Date: 2002-10-26 10:21 am (UTC)As well it should have - "Far from amounting to "unabated piracy," 136 F.Supp.2d 1357, 1369 (N.D. Ga. 2001), The Wind Done Gone is unequivocally parody, as both Judge Birch and the Supreme Court in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc., 510 U.S. 569 (1994), define that term." Having read the books myself, I'll say that they were both rather tedious... Thank god the legal definition of parody has nothing to do with humour. I don't know (couldn't say) if the better works of fan fiction would pass muster as significantly critical enough of the original material to use this defense. IANAL.
I'm basically sympathetic to the claim that participants in vidding culture should not deliberately copy entire sequences from other vids.
As am I. I'm simply hold to the idea that a policy of accreditation of the sources makes this a much clearer issue. With this, Sisabet's original problem (others taking credit for her work) is no longer a matter of debate.
As for how to do this, when I've done video production in the past, digitally watermarking the frames before the final compression has worked well. This has the advantage of being able to track a video through at least a couple generations of editing after the watermarking. Yes, this is a rather high-end technique - WMM isn't going to cut it.
Re: God, I shouldn't be doing this
Date: 2002-10-27 12:31 am (UTC)I'm glad this has been cleared up. Here I thought you were saying I was a hypocrite and you actually wanted me to realize the value of a video watermark. Silly how these things get started, isn't it?