Ranting that Should Probably be F-Locked, But Isn't

[sisabet]

There were kerfuffles and I missed them? Any new ones or was it the same old same old slash is of teh debil and we are all going to hell in new and inventive ways dealio? Cause not much skin off my nose if so.

Nummy Treat looks ripe for a meltdown and yet I still post. I am trying to let go. This is me stepping back. I want to talk vids and critiques and techniques and have an actual dialogue, but I feel like I spend half my time apologizing for taking vidding seriously and the other half assuring people that I am not judging them and *still* we have to deal with the egos.

Cutting for a rant and lots and lots of cursing (I'm frustrated). I don't rant often and I don't seriously rant about things other than Best Buy - like ever - but I am here.

See - I have an ego. I am proud of my videos. Damned proud. I have worked hard on them and dammit - they are (for the most part) exactly what I want them to be - and that did not happen by accident.

I have learned a lot along the way. Everything I have learned has been because someone has helped me. The more into the medium I became, the more resources opened up for me. This has been fantastic.

All I wanted to do was to get the list to move back to what it used to be so that people that want and need feedback to improve can. This is all I have fucking wanted for 2 fucking years. Goddammit.

And all of a sudden people start posting in droves about how we are dampening someone's creative spirit. About how we are not in charge of defining what is Art and what is not. About how they vid for "fun" and art and they don't have fun obsessing over every frame but still like feedback.

FUCK!!!!!!

YOU CAN ALL GO TO HELL!! YOU CAN ALL GO TO FUCKING HELL AND DIE GODDAMMIT!! YOU FUCKING BASTARD PEOPLE!!!!

::gasps for breath::

Okay - I never said one person is making art and another is not. I pretty much believe art is in the eye of the beholder. I did say we will get accused of being elitist bitches and guess what - ta da! Also - the term "braying asses" was used.

And then the moderator came on and stated this is the first "generalized" fucking warning?? WTF? Civil post, civil post, civil post, attack on poster - General Warning to Everyone. It does not compute. Delete the post and put the flamer on warning status. God. Read the fucking FAQ.

I have had it. I am sick of fucking molly-coddling people.

You don't obsess over your vid? Fine - GUESS WHAT - it shows. I don't have time to watch it. NEXT.

I hurt your feelings that I don't have time for your vid? Sorry, I am never happy about hurting anyone's feelings. I still don't have time for your vid. NEXT.

You vid for fun? Great, me too. We have different ideas about fun. NEXT

You think I am a pretentious snob? Okay. NEXT.

Let me see if I have this straight: Fun/Art vidders pretty much make any vid that they take a notion to do. Some vids are taken very seriously and they work really hard on them and others are just done on a lark and they really don't want to take the time to make those vids the best that they could do because that just isn't fun. And then they call themselves FART vidders.

Fine. Great. Go to town. I don't really care. You are obviously not the target person I am talking to about serious critique. NEXT.

Remember when this came up in video bootcamp? - someone submitted their vid to be critiqued and then had a fit at the suggestions saying she really did not enjoy working on a vid that hard and Dawn told that vidder "What part of bootcamp did you not understand? It is not Vidder's Day At the Spa" - I loved that.

Fuck. We haven't even gotten to real vid discussion yet - we are still talking about discussion and everyone has to be handheld and they all have to be assured and I am so tired of it.

My opinion is my own. Deal with it - or not. It doesn't matter - it is just a fucking opinion. I don't require consensus.

All I want to do is help people who are interested - seriously interested - in becoming the best vidders they can possibly be - because someone fucking helped me.

Now it has turned into "I don't want to work and y'all should shut up about this cause y'all are making me feel bad and it ain't right to make someone feel bad about art."


Which sucks for the people who are actually serious about this.

I'll be pissed off over in the corner. Fuck. Fuckity Fuck Fuck Fuck. I really thought we had a shot at making it work onlist. Fuck.

I am Drew Barrymore on the baseball diamond in "Donnie Darko."

FUCK!!!!!!

Comments

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

If I vidded, I'd want you to tear my work to pieces. Since I don't, I'll just say I'm grateful you're a pretentious snob who takes things that fucking seriously. Because I like your art.

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

*holds up lighter*

Setting that list to No Mail and then forgetting altogether that it even exists has been the best thing that has ever happened to me.

Where are the Braying Ass icons?

[just-eunice.livejournal.com]

I echo your FUCK heartily.

[swanswan.livejournal.com]

Hey you: I'm not a vidder, and I've never been an on-list participant in anything but - bear with me here - I think your rant was a damn fine piece of yelling. The mollying and coddling is fine, man, if all you want is the joy of sticking a happy ending on a scene or putting two pretty moving pictures together. If you want something more than that (and not many people do, to be honest; sometimes I don't) then you *have* to be ready to take criticism. Hell, you have to *crave* criticism.

This:
You don't obsess over your vid? Fine - GUESS WHAT - it shows. I don't have time to watch it. NEXT.
I hurt your feelings that I don't have time for your vid? Sorry, I am never happy about hurting anyone's feelings. I still don't have time for your vid. NEXT.
You vid for fun? Great, me too. We have different ideas about fun. NEXT
You think I am a pretentious snob? Okay. NEXT.

Pretentious snobs of the world UNITE! You have talent and you work hard. You have passion and you love what you do. You have better things to be doing than pandering to the lazy.
Plus, you're in the elitist bitch buffy vidding cabal, yo. You have a responsibility to get in periodic snits!! And I'm v jealous. Of all the amorphous fandom cliques I'd love to enter, that is the one I admire most. I don't actually, um, make videos though, so I'm a bit fucked there. Maybe I could get a "elitist bitch buffy vidding cabal GROUPIE" icon?? Whatcha think???

[par-avion.livejournal.com]

I've been amazed/impressed at how well you are dealing with this b.s. on-list. I'd actually turned off the emails from NT because they were so freaking boring, but I turned them back on after some one on LJ mentioned the whole "take back the night" thing that was going on.

Can we just talk about vids already and not talk about talking about vids?!?! I debated posting some critique of SDW's vid in the hopes of focusing the conversation, but my internet access crapped out (again!) last night. There's also the fact that no one on-list knows who I am unless maybe they are on LJ, but I don't care. I don't want the moment to slip away!

Sympathy & hugs & chocolate.

[f1renze.livejournal.com]

Maybe I could get a "elitist bitch buffy vidding cabal GROUPIE" icon??

As GROUPIE president, I say please make some :)))

And Liz, rock on.

[catatonic1242.livejournal.com]

As someone who has been sitting of out most of the NT debates, I think it'd be a good idea to just establish some kind of LJ vid critique group, rather than trying to do it on NT. I'm all for critique, and I know that NT used to be like that, but I don't think we're going to get back to actual, in-depth discussion without kicking and screaming and hair-pulling. And I'd be more likely to follow a discussion on LJ, anyway. ;)

That said, I also think that people who do not want to be critiqued are afraid of having happen to them what happened to me today-- namely, I was "called-out" on one of my vids. Now, I didn't put my vid up for critique, but god knows I'm more than happy to give a walkthrough explaining my rationale for everything I did in the vid (and I'm in the process of doing so); however, I'm sure there are vast number of vidders on NT who are not. They're the ones who are freaking out about on-list critique.

Just my $0.02.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

This icon - I have it in sticker form and it graces the inside of my business card holder.

::loves renenet::

Well - I am very proud to be an elitist bitch. I worked hard for this standing - and I need to not be shocked that the attempt at serious discussion is currently dying a slow and painful death. This has happened before. I just got my hopes up this time cause - things looked really cool for a few days. I know better.

As a writer - you are familiar with this I am sure - I think it absolutely correlates. Knowing tech for vidding would be like grammar and spell check, etc.

I'd feel better if I were already moved. This boxing up everything I own stuff is driving me nuts.

And thank you so much. I really appreciate the support. I'd also like some Clex "moving day" porn - but I'll settle for virtual chocolate.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

::clings to you::

[heresluck]

Right there with you.

I do think there's still a chance to get the list back on track. Posting about SDW's vid is the best start I can think of. I'm writing up feedback later this evening.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I think you are right - as far as not being able to do this on NT. I think though - if we establish a separate list or community - we become isolated from the people that want/need us.

namely, I was "called-out" on one of my vids.

I saw that post and ya know - I love that kinda stuff. You didn't get my vid? Let's talk about the choices made and discuss what I intended and what came across. You've been around as long as I have - so I'm certain you didn't mind the dialogue either. I am trying to have patience with the people who don't want it - I swear I am - but I just want them to shut up and let us do this. If they don't want us to watch their vids - fine. I won't watch. But don't tell us to watch and not comment. Or something. I don't know. I am gonna go to not speaking unless spoken to.

[f1renze.livejournal.com]

This boxing up everything I own stuff is driving me nuts.

::wonders if it's embodied cognition at work::

[swanswan.livejournal.com]

I'd also like some Clex "moving day" porn - but I'll settle for virtual chocolate.

Hmmm. I just finished some Clex summery picnic fluff - will that do in the meantime?? Will post v soon.

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

Meep.

I probably should keep my mouth shut here, but I'm gradually becoming less and less good at that.

I get what you're saying, I really, really do. (Or at least I think I do -- not like I can read your mind, after all.)

I've made one vid. It was on iMovie (because that was the program I had access to at the time) and I'm sure it probably could have been sixteen times better than it was. If I remade it now, based on the experience of having made it once, I'm sure it would be three or four times better, easy, just from what I learned. It took me basically the whole process of making that one vid to figure out how to use the program, and I didn't try to play with the (admittedly probably very few compared to Premiere's) bells and whistles much at all. I just had a song that struck me, an idea, and I made a vid.

Based on stuff I've seen posted by the vidders *I* consider to be the BNFs, I'm terrified to go any further with vidding. What if my song choice isn't accepted? What if the clips I choose to use aren't appropriate enough (or, worse, *too* appropriate and literal?) What if no one will even look at my vid because it's made on iMovie instead of Premiere? What if I'm automatically dismissed by the very people who could help me most because I'm deemed a "fun" vidder instead of a serious one?

Please don't misunderstand -- I'm not condemning you all for not having endless patience with people's whose ideas of vidding are very different than your own. I'm trying to point out that, deliberately or accidentally, the "serious vidders" (and who belongs to that group is no doubt different for each individual you might talk to) are getting -- or already have -- a reputation for being so exclusionary that I think it's driving potential new vidders away. And maybe that doesn't matter to you, because hell, for all I know there are hundreds of potential/newbie vidders on the list you're talking about and as far as you're concerned, you want most of them to go away.

Just... good new vidders aren't going to spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus, you know? And some of them are going to require some hand-holding and reassurance until they've built up some confidence.

Me, I'll be hiding over here in the corner.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. That would be perfect. I will be refreshing your LJ like a madwoman after work.

Thank you. I need fluff. Cottony, kitteny- balls o' fluff. Need it. Crave it. Might go insane without it.

[catatonic1242.livejournal.com]

if we establish a separate list or community - we become isolated from the people that want/need us.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. The people who need it will follow, just as they went to Boot Camp. I think the majority of people who want critique have LJs-- and even if they don't, it's code-free to register these days. ;)

I'm certain you didn't mind the dialogue either.

Nope, I don't (although, as I was telling sdwolfpup, now I have to go back and watch the vid to remember what my point *was*). But I can certainly see how having that kind of post directed at them would freak out a new vidder, or a vidder who had a different approach to the process.

I am gonna go to not speaking unless spoken to.

Bad plan! Bad plan! *clings*

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Just... good new vidders aren't going to spring fully formed from the forehead of Zeus, you know?

I started with WMM - and my first vids - trust me, they are not good. They are not even in the same room as good. To call them bad would be charitable. I also know from bad song choice - my first vid was a freaking Spike vid to Gordon Lightfoot's "If I Could Read Your Mind" - I defy someone to top my first vid for utter wretchedness.

Perhaps I should post it. Seriously.

My point is that it is not important where you are coming from - what is important is improving - becoming the best vidder you can be. You can't do that in a vacuum. You do that by learning from other people - what worked for them, what did not - solid, helpful critique.

That is what I was trying to get started. Just for the people interested. Now there is just this mad rush of people who are not interested in doing this - but feel I or other vidders are dissing them for not wanting to participate.

And yeah - I know the serious vidders have a rep for being exclusionary - Hell there is a reason I am bitter and a lot of it stems from being constantly beat down on this one fricking list. I'm still approachable. Right?

Crap.

[fox1013.livejournal.com]

*reads*

*reads again*

Marry me?

[swanswan.livejournal.com]

Fluff shall be thine!! But not til tomorrow, sorry ;-) - i just got a beta back and need to do some tweaking. I'm a pretentious snob too, you know, and my fluff must be... primped before posting *g*

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

I made my groupie icon a while back... I ought to make some more and make them available. I'm a vid addict, and I every much appreciate the cabal.

[f1renze.livejournal.com]

It does exist! Yes, spread them wide :)

::gladly steps down from assumed position:: Hee!

[spuzz.livejournal.com]

The reasons why I gratefully left months ago become abundantly clear.

I hate that list, with a burning passion. It's just...bad, and it's out of control in general.

I feel the exact same way about icons, and the amount of effort spent on them. It is art. Period.

Your a excellent ranter, and I for one am glad you didn't friends lock.

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

It's probably small consolation, but ficwriters run into the same sort of issues between "I just want to write whatever I want to and it's FUN!" and "I want to beat myself to shreds and create a really crafted story and it's FUN!" folks. It's difficult to reach out (and be reachable) to new writers who want helpful critique and mentoring for fun when they're surrounded by people who write "for fun" and don't want to even work with a single beta reader.

Long live the cabal. Y'all rock.

[crowie.livejournal.com]

Right, Im not currently on any vidder communities that are active but Im on several digital art forums where the crit business pops up again and again.

People ask for crits and then get mad when they get them. It's something that needs to be well defined in the rules of the community. Something that sais that if you want crits and then get them, you don't have a right to complain.

Ive done a handful of vids and most of them were serious. I spent aaages on trying to get them just right. I've also done one vid that took perhaps 4-5 hours in total to make. I had a stupid silly idea and voila! the vid got done. I don't think the idea behind that vid is good enough to warrant a well thought out good vid so making the effort into making it the best possible vid it could be isn't really worth it. I'd rather move on and tackle a new vid that might have more merit.

Ok my point got lost I think. What Im trying to say is that there is a place for stupid just for fun vids but they should firmly be marked as such. Also that kind of vid has no business crowding a list/community centered around making better vids, becoming a better vidder. It takes alot of effort to improve in anything and if you don't continually push yourself a little bit further everytime you create something you wont get better.

Anyway I'd love to join a community where I'd get actual crits and where there would be a real drive to try be the best vidder you can be.

So.. where do I sign up?

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm still approachable. Right?

*Hugs* And yes, or I wouldn't have commented at all.

Part of it, from my perspective, is that I don't *really* get the "bad song choice vs good song choice" thing. I mean, I can understand saying that top 40 hits might not be the most creative, artistic choice possible. I don't listen to the radio, so as a result I generally have no idea what songs are "popular" and therefore labeled predictable as vid choices and which ones aren't. (As an example, the other day I was in a store and was stunned to hear Damien Rice being played over the radio. I'd no idea he got radio play on mainstream rock stations. So I might pick one of his songs to vid to, thinking that he's kind of 'alternative' -- although granted that word as applied to music has lost most of its meaning -- when in reality he's now totally mainstream and eight other people are making vids to his songs even as we speak.) How am I supposed to know? Other than tirelessly searching on the internet to see which songs have been vidded to death already, I'm not sure what a newish vidder is supposed to do. And then what if the song that really speaks to me is predictable and literal? Should I choose a song just because I'm convinced hardly anyone has ever heard it, even if I have no idea how to vid to it because it's vague and odd and I don't even like it? If I pick the "wrong" song, does that mean I'll be instantly dismissed as a "serious" vidder and that the BNFs, who are technically in a position to be the most help to me, won't even look at my vid? Should I just give up on the thought of choosing a song that has any meaning to me and ask the BNFs for a list of acceptable songs and musical artists?

(Sorry -- I don't really mean for you to answer any of these questions. I'm just trying to provide examples of what newbie vidders in fandom might be thinking. These are the things that I'm thinking. Also, that it's hard enough to learn how to use even iMovie, not to mention Premiere, on one's own, let alone to try to do it while making a vid to a song that's not at all literal.)

Personally, I'd welcome critique on my own stuff, provided I was expecting it, but there would definitely be caveats to that. If I'm having a shit day, or a shit week, and feeling emotionally low and shaky... god knows I don't want to get back a critique on something I've put a lot of work into ripping it apart. Maybe that's what these people on list are worried about? Maybe some of them just don't want critique at all (which is their perogative really, just as it's yours not to watch their vids if you don't care to) and it wasn't stated clearly enough that only people who requested critique would receive it? Maybe whoever is in charge of the list (and I have no idea who that might be) needs to make a decision that any vidders on list are prone to having their vids critiqued, and give a week for those who aren't comfortable with that to unsub from the list?

It sounds to me like you all are finding this very stressful, and while fandom is often work, and sometimes very hard work, it shouldn't be miserable.

*More hugs*