New Vid! Women's Work

[sisabet]

Soooo, I've been a-go-go (not cry-cry) in Chicago all day and it's been a blast. Cappy and I are staying with fan_eunice and we had brunch this morning with pipsqueaky and sdwolfpup and absolutedestiny and dualbunny and Gerry. It was then off to Michigan Avenue for me, Cappy and Eunice. We made plans to meet up later, hugged SD goodbye and headed off to the Apple Store (we are sightseeing fen with a bad battery - the genius counter is, of course, our first stop). We then made our way through Millenium Park and then spent the rest of the day at the Art Institute. Outside, we ran into svmadelyn, who had explored ALL of Michigan Avenue and THEN we then hooked back up with DBuns, Gerry, Ian and Pips - we all went out for deep dish and met up with celli  and then back to the Apple Store to meet with the genius and to Pips' to watch "Out of Their Minds" and now I am finally landing on Eunice's couch and I see Lum has posted our vid (yay!) and people are talking about it (double yay).

Also, Ahm tard, y'all. So, I'll post more of the thinky thoughts that led up this vid as an idea much much later. I don't really think authorial intent matters much anymore because the vid is out there and it's up to anyone watching it to figure out what it means. I do want to preface the vid (and I've debated saying even this) that I have a crazy, fierce, total madlove for Supernatural. The shit I deal with every day, the crap we watch every day, the goddamn Captivity trailers/billboards, the fucking torture-porn-a-thon of a new movie every week this spring, the woman of the week on EVERY GODDAMN SHOW I love, the fact that only mommies burn on the ceiling and daddies get to fall down dead, the freaking exploitative crap I have to wade through to read even my *favorite* comic books, and I could go on, but hell, all of it leads to just sitting down and wanting to at least point some of it out. I don't even think it is so much a popular-media thing, or even a cultural thing so much as... just people? Maybe? Even  at the Art Institute today, it was rape, rape, rape in almost every other room (but no rape in the gift-shop. I looked)  and I am done talking now.

Except not cause I still have to love and hug and thank sockkpuppett because without her, this wouldn't exist. She got it, she got it immediately and she made it happen.  And we love our goddamn show. Just so it's clear and all - the vid could have been made using *anything* -  seriously. Look around, this shit is *everywhere*

Women's Work
Vid by Luminosity and sisabet
Song: Violet by Hole
Our bodies, ourselves

Download here and here. Lum's also got it up on imeem and you can read her post and tell her what you think here.
 ETA:  8-19-09 all links should work

Violet

And the sky was made of amethyst
And all the stars looked just like little fish
You should learn when to go
You should learn how to say no

Might last a day
Mine is forever
Might last a day
Mine is forever

When they get what they want, they never want it again
When they get what they want, they never want it again
Go on, take everything, take everything I want you to
Go on, take everything, take everything I want you to

And the sky was all violets
I want it again, but violent more violence
Now I'm the one with no soul
One above and one below

Might last a day
Mine is forever
Might last a day
Mine is forever

When they get what they want, they never want it again
When they get what they want they never want it again
Go on take everything, take everything I want you to
Go on take everything, take everything I dare you to

I told you from the start
Just how this would end
When I get what I want, I never want it again
Go on take everything, take everything I want you to
Go on take everything, take everything I want you to
Go on take everything, take everything I want you to
Go on take everything
Take everything
Take everything
Take everything






 

Comments are all appreciated.

Comments

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Commented on Lum's post, but I wanted to comment here, too.

This vid really blew my mind for a bit. It pissed me off, made me feel defensive, and even made me wonder if I could ever trust you as a vidder again. And then, you know, I kept thinking about it. I'm still thinking about it.

Part of my head, the part that adores Supernatural and the boys was (is) sputtering, "but there's so much more there!" However, as time passes, the calmer part of my head reminds me -- just because there's more there, doesn't mean that that negates the violent and brutal images and scenes showcased in Women's Work. It doesn't. It can't.

Thank you for reminding me of that. Even if it was a painful reminder.

And amazing work on the vid.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your comment - I can't say I'm sorry you had a visceral reaction to the vid, it is kind of the point. I'm glad you were able to give the idea of this vid another chance even if it didn't sit well with you at all upon initial viewing.

...even made me wonder if I could ever trust you as a vidder again

I'm having a fairly difficult time expressing how I feel about this statement. I don't thing you should trust me - or any artist - to never ever offend or challenge or say something that you disagree with, sometimes on a fundamental level and sometimes just as a reactionary defensiveness and sometimes something else entirely. This is bound to happen, at least on occasion.

And yes there is more to the show and there were two other vids in Premieres (including yours) that discussed other aspects quite thoroughly. I don't feel SPN is being shortchanged at *all* by one singular vid exploring the idea that, for the most part? Women exist to be victims, sacrifices, love-interests-of-the-week, or demonic evil that needs to be destroyed. Yeah, dudes get picked on as well - but the actual onscreen depiction is usually a bit different. It's pretty apparent when you spend all day mired in horrific abuse stories and then go home to your wonderful escapist shiny shiny show and find...some pretty horrific abuse.

And I know you were waiting for the women to turn the tables and kickass and how great is it, that in this post-Buffy world, that the expectation is that the women in the vid would emerge triumphant? Whoot! Hell, all during Season 2 I'd work on this project and just *wait* and *hope* it would get jossed. I remember seeing the previews for "No Exit" and IMing Luminosity about this vid in context to that episode as soon as it aired. Because I'd love it if we could have made this a woman kicking ass vid, but that never actually happened on the show. Seeds were somewhat planted that Jo would get better and she was hunting on her own, but we never saw it. Ellen isn't in the vid because she doesn't (yet??) meet the victim/sacrifice/vengeance criteria, but she doesn't totally negate it either. I have really high hopes for Ellen, still.

I'm also sorry your first introduction to Hole has such negative connotations for you. I actually think "Live Through This" is a brilliant album (not so crazy about their later work) and contains some truly amazing rage based on feelings of hopeless feministic impotence. Because really - what do we do about this? It's bone-deep - I don't really seeing it changing.

[ficbyzee.livejournal.com]

I already commented on Lum's post (even though I totally fail at expressing my feelings for this vid in actual, like, coherent feedback), but I just wanted to thank you guys again for making this vid.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! I missed you at the con this year!

[luminosity]

OH THANK GOD. By around 8:30 tonight, I wanted to kill myself.

:) Here. Have an icon.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

{{{hugs}}}

[anashi.livejournal.com]

Very illuminating. I just found out about the guy they were going to show getting killed in the faith healer episode. I found it in the deleted scenes. I think it's pretty telling. It was stylistically very similar to how women are usually filmed getting killed. They decided to not film his violent death, but decided to almost 'lovingly' film all the rest of the victims, who were women, getting killed. I guess it's not okay to kill men when they're almost naked and look vulnerable but for women, it's like...go for it. Disgusting. And yes, it's like violent porn isn't it, because there are certain cinematic choices they could make but never do on how to film those deaths.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Right! And I don't even think they know that they do this.

[silveraspen]

Another one of those who commented to Lum's post, but I wanted to say here as well -- thank you for making this.

I love this show like oxygen, despite its flaws, but that doesn't mean that being blind to those flaws is a good thing. Thanks for showcasing, in such a brilliant and insightful way, something that we should all be aware of.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much.

[rydra_wong]

You and Lum continue to be made of awesome, you know that?

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Hee! Thank you so much!

[loligo.livejournal.com]

This vid is 100% Grade-A feminist rage GENIUS, and the song choice could not possibly have been more perfect.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad that the song worked for you. My ipod suggested it when I asked it for a SPN vidsong and after I quit boggling at it I saw in perfect order what it meant. I'm also happy I was able to finally use the rage song of my youth! Er, maybe happy is not the right word?

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

You guys are SUPERAWESOME! And, like, to totally make this all about me, I have felt so alone! Which is actually wrong, many of my friends agree with me about the show, and people who disagree are more often silent than vocal, but the few who've argued argue SO MUCH I still feel bruised. And now I don't feel alone anymore! Because there is vid!

So, initial response: SO MUCH LOVE! LOVE AND FEMINIST RAGE! FEMINIST RAGE AND LOVE!

SPN w/o Winchesters: AWESOME.

I was initially puzzled by the inclusion of Cassie in the vid, since she unlike a lot of girls of the week got out alive and without significant scarring, and then I realized that the problems were still there, that she is girl of the week, that women's suffering continues to be the *impetus* for the story while men's suffering *is* the story. (Cf. Destina's "Want," which offers an eroticization of the men's suffering, and--it's not the same effect at all. And the men are wearing considerably more clothes in general.)

A little squicked by the final clip -- like, love it as a kick in a gut, in the refusal of easy empowerment ("Fuck victimization! We'll be MONSTERS instead!" But the monsters still die, die, die), but am a little squicked by the black man killing the white woman -- visually striking, but such a creepy invocation of lynching, especially with our sympathies re-set to Ava as our stand-in by the vid.

[smonsterbite.livejournal.com]

Okay, I feel it's lametastic to reply to someone else's comment before commenting on the vid, but I need to quote this:

> women's suffering continues to be the *impetus* for the story while men's suffering *is* the story

Thank you for crystallizing this issue so well. And now I want to go home and think of 50 million examples from the text, because I bet I could.

[minim_calibre]

I love this vid for many reasons: one, it's really effectively done; two, you're right, it COULD be any source, and how's that fair to half the population?; three, it's sparking awesome discussions.

(And, four, I love seeing people love things WHILE owning the gender or race issues in the text. It makes me happy.)

Like I said at Lum's, it gave me gooseflesh.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much!

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

I adore you.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

{{hugs}}

[cofax7]

This is awesomeness personified. I love the show, but yeah, not blind to its faults. Thank you for making it.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[escritoireazul.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this vid ever since I watched it, trying to find the right words to comment, but I don't have them. I can say thank you for making this, thank you, a hundred times thank you, but that's not right, either. I want to have thoughtful things to say, and instead I am just rocked to the core because all my complaints, all these things I've said (and sometimes felt like I've said them to a void, even though I know there are other people who feel the same way) are suddenly right there in the vid, compacted, everything all at once like a gorgeous combination punch.

So thank you for making this vid. It puts together all the things some fans want to ignore, puts it all into a visual, visceral blow.

I'm going to link this to everyone I know and then watch it again to see if I can move beyond being absolutely thankful someone made this vid.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much. I don't know that I wouldn't ignore this if I could - it isn't as if I don't ignore *a lot* of stuff in my enjoyment of pop-culture/media.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Like I told Lum, this vid is amazing and I love it and I love what you were saying as well as the way you said it. And I wish in-depth vid review hadn't made me so sporky.

I appreciate the warning you two gave me, but I'm glad I kept my eyes open. I This vid is all about keeping your eyes open.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I've actually decided that you exaggerated your gore response when we talked Kill Bill a few years ago. Or maybe you have become desensitized? And I am so glad you did keep your eyes open and that it worked for you!! And my personal response to in-depth vid review is keeping me from writing a con report because it is all I want to rant, er, talk about. Also the whole VVC=rant thing feels really foreign to me.

[cupcake-goth.livejournal.com]

The vid is amazing. I have more I want to say, but I can't organize it coherently; it keeps coming out as "Yes! That is exactly what is wrong with culture, and it makes me upset that things I think are good still have huge huge flaws they don't need to if their creators just were a little more aware of what they're doing!" Like I said, incoherent.

You and Luminosity are full of awesome.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much!

[smonsterbite.livejournal.com]

I love this vid. I love the way it shifts from the victims to the monsters as the song switches from "you" to "I." I love the way the music works both with the text and the metatext - are we, as female fans, getting what we want? I love that WHILE loving the text, you two put together such a powerful and dense indictment of problems with the show.

Brava, brava, brava.

(hmm. which angry female icon of many to use?)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much.

[fox1013.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the show, but several people were talking about it, and I like your stuff, so I watched, and... wow.

This is a powerful vid. I am not at all surprised it's getting strong reactions. And I am so glad you guys chose to make something like this.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I don't really think that the show is actually a good match for you at this time, but you know, it is very young and I have very high hopes for it, actually. So, you know, be prepared for possible pimpage.

[alchemise]

That was very disturbing and powerful. I really need to think about this vid a lot, but really excellent work.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for this comment and for continuing discussion in your LJ. I do appreciate all the thinky thoughts.

[hederahelix.livejournal.com]

This was an amazing piece of work. I have to say, one of the things that struck me most about the vid was the way that although I can tell you the names and approximate ages of most of the recurring male characters who are not the leads on the show, I barely even visually recognized an awful lot of the women. That's really telling to me.

I honestly think that if ever there were a case for a vid being shown to TPTB (not that I would do it--I swear, I'm not an idiot, I'm just saying, as proof of how effective this is), this would be it. The thing with most isms (sexism, racism, classism, heterosexism, sizeism, ageism, abilityism, etc.) is that they are insidious in the ways that they get into our minds and affect us without us even knowing. I've said before that watching footage like the Paley Festival has led me to believe that SPN is a very guy set--a bunch of boys getting to play with a bunch of boy toys and tell boy stories and having a good ol' time. And as a slasher, that's a lot of fun to watch.

But the flip side of that is (and maybe it's different in the writing room where there are more women, or maybe there are more women on set than we've seen in the footage we have) that it's very easy for those men to forget about how what they're doing accumulates into something that follows the pattern the vid has so clearly pointed out, and putting all of it together like this makes a powerful statement about that.

It'll be interesting to see how things develop in Season 3 (stops before she says anything that might be construed as spoilery.)

So, you know, well done.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I am very excited about Season 3 even as I was disappointed in S2's possibilities in this perspective (which is completely different from my fannish glee which was over and over again DELIGHTED by much of season 2)

Yeah, I don't think any of this is done maliciously or intentionally. SPN films a little horror movie every week and they are very dedicated to maintaining that formula. Unfortunately, that means it kinda sucks to be a woman or girl in that universe. This really doesn't separate SPN universe from any other fictional universe, really.

[heresluck]

I know you'll see all this in Lum's LJ, but I'm repeating it here JUST FOR YOU.

I've been putting off commenting because there's so much I want to say about this vid, but I think that's just going to have to be a post of its own. What I want to say here is that although the content of the vid disturbed me -- as it should -- the total effect of the vid thrilled me.

As I said in vid review, this is some of the most powerful feminist criticism that I've seen in any medium; it's the two of you taking this source that you deeply love and doing something, well, critical -- in the sense of "literary criticism" or "critical thinking": doing the kind of close examination and trenchant analysis that can only be done by somebody who knows the source well and cares about it deeply.

I don't know this particular source as well as you two do, of course, but as a consumer of media in our culture I can think of a lot of source that would lend itself to similar treatment -- less dramatically, perhaps, but no less accurately. The pattern you've identified makes me angry -- not at you, and not even just at the creators of this or any show who don't see the patterns they're establishing and reinforcing, but for us, for all of us who have to learn to handwave these patterns or downplay their significance in order to go on loving the narratives that we love.

And, okay, because this has all been pretty abstract, I also want to talk about the vid itself. I love the way you establish the sense of menace with those opening clips of the little girl and the spooky shadows, and that you go on to elaborate that menace as sexual with those fingers under the edge of the red lacy whatever-she's-wearing: this is about bodies and the boundaries of bodies, of the possibility of rape, of specifically gendered and sexualized violence -- which you hit again in the second verse with all those shots of pretty cleavage. And all those women struggling on "take everything, I want you to" -- I get chills, I actually shudder, every time. And then that turn in the final verse: we get this glimpse of powerful women, but they're evil -- but then those dark streams coming out of their mouths, which of course for me resonate with images from Buffy S7! -- so, yeah, two choices: victim or evil, and either way you end up dead.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a vid that uses such viscerally disturbing images to support such a clear and powerful thesis. I'm in awe. This is what I want for all of us: to be able to take such a clear-eyed look at what we love, to face the implications of the cultural patterns around us. I am just -- I am really proud to know you two right now. Thank you.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! I'm excited to talk about the vid right now because we didn't really talk at all about the vid before the con, which was kind of a new experience for me.

love the way you establish the sense of menace with those opening clips of the little girl and the spooky shadows, and that you go on to elaborate that menace as sexual with those fingers under the edge of the red lacy whatever-she's-wearing

Well, it's always sexual in some sense, isnt' it? I deliberately opened the vid with a small child in bed, afraid, then went to a pre-pubescent girl also in bed, afraid because... well, it just isn't safe - and unfortunately age is not a factor. You are exposed and vulnerable and something will come for you. And yeah, I was afraid I was being waaaaay too focussed on my own issues and it was only Lum holding my hand and getting it that made me feel confident in sexualizing the hell out of that entire sequence.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

God. Brilliant and speechless-making and damn near impossible for me to watch. I've seen one episode of this show ever, and it was nowhere near the worst of them but still pinged my torture-porndar, and I just want you to know that this vid and your comments on it make me feel... I don't know. A feeling. Somewhere flailing wildly between miserable (about the world) and overjoyed (that there are people taking notice of it and calling bullshit, even when it's in their own fandoms).

It goes without saying for you two that this was a really well-edited video in terms of timing and tone and lots of things I don't have the vocabulary for. What really stood out for me was how deliberately you highlighted the blatantly sex-object women: the clevage, the legs, all of them virtually interchangeable. She Exists To Be Hot and Then Die Horribly (And Still Be Kind of Hot While Doing So). I ought to shut up before I start generalizing unfairly about a show I don't even watch, but this goes so beyond "Supernatural" and into media as a whole.

I'll just stop rambling and say to you the same thing I said to Lum -- thank you for having the big brass woman-balls to make this.

[nicole-anell.livejournal.com]

P.S. Cleavage is a word. Clevage is not. Heh.

And I just noticed how almost everyone commenting in this thread has their own Angry Feminist-type icon, and I'm disappointed that all I have is my sexbot. *pets sexbot*

[morgandawn.livejournal.com]

talking about objectification - check this out

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2886730

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

That's really...huh.

The thing is, I'm not all that down on the objectification of consenting adults it is just - where is my dancing himbo made of beer?

[muccamukk]

That was really amazing. I'd noticed the sensationalisation (which is totally a word, damnit!) of violence against women in that show, but it was something else again to see it all at once.

I think I need to go watch Buffy now, not that that show's near perfect, but at least it tried.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I think SPN does try - it totally does - but I don't think it is aware that this is an issue and that it does this.

I have high hopes for Season 3. I had high hopes for Season 2 and it almost fulfilled them a number of times but it just wasn't quite there.

[(Anonymous)]

Perhaps I can't get into this vid because I find myself unable to divorce any of it from the context of the show but I honestly can't see Supernatural as sexist as a lot of women seem to from reading these posts (and a few other reviews on other journals). I mean putting them all into one vid with each clip after another will make any show look bad on those terms. But like for instance, the small clips from Asylum showed the moment when the girl was scared but for the majority of that episode she was shown as more competent and brave than her boyfriend. There were also other female characters that have shown strength on the show. There are other moments in there too where I can remember counterpoints where the guys are also victims either in the same episode as the female example or in other episodes.

[ncvids.livejournal.com]

I don't really think you could make a vid with this level of sexualized violence in most fandoms. But even assuming that were true -- in most fandoms, you could also make a vid that explicitly counters this argument, and there really aren't enough scenes of women having specific agency in Supernatural to match this.

And honestly, I've been hearing about the strength of the girl from Asylum for 2 years now. I guess she was a more important character than I originally thought?

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I'm just c&p'ing the comment I left on sockkpuppett's post:

I've been thinking about the vid since I watched it, and I keep thinking I'll have something more coherent to say, so I've waited to comment, but I don't. I thought it was spectacular, in the sense that it summed up in a truly visceral way, some of the really ugly things about SPN that I know are there and try not to think about too much, and did it with mindfulness and style. Amazing work.