On Spoilers and Rants and Lifting Depression-Fogs

[sisabet]

Oh wow. I think I just got massively spoiled for "Dead Like Me" Season 2 while I was reading about the Serenity/FF wank over at, um, Fandom wank. I so did not expect that.

But here is the thing - unlike, say a movie that has not yet been released or a television show that has not yet aired I have had more than ample opportunity to catch the fuck up on DLM by now. Seriously. Season 2 aired and I chose to not watch it then and again I chose to to take my time with the episodes because I have issues with shows that deal realistically with the unexpected death of a teenager.

Wait? Was that a spoiler? Because DLM does deal realistically with the implications that George's untimely death wreck on her family. And I need time to process that. And I don't think I should have to worry that the fucking premise of a show is gonna be viewed as a gaspOMPgasp spoiler that I am afraid to talk about it without a cut tag or what-have-you, because really and truly this whole Spoilerphobia thing we have going on here in LJLand is a lot like the monkey bars on the playground.

Remember the cool monkey bars? The ones that were like a MILE off the ground and underneath them there was just concrete covered in broken glass? YEAH! You got on those bars and you felt a real sense of danger, some excitement. You made it across and didn't break a leg and you had accomplished something. There was general respect and it was playground-wide and it was aimed at you.

And now they are gone. As are see-saws and merry-go-rounds and swings that are higher than 8 feet off the ground because kids got hurt on them and yada yada yada life is just not as fun anymore. Wear your helmet.

Not that I am advocating child-endangerment or a neglect of safety standards. Hell - I don't even have kids. I don't really care other than I freaking miss merry-go-rounds and except for the times see saws were used as an instrument of torture by the bigger kids, I also miss seesaws. Not so much the monkey bars as they were not my thing, but my older sister had a ton of playground/recess cachet because of them and just by virtue of being related to her I also got some of the residual gleam. It was nice.

So this thing I know about DLM - was it something I suspected (because I have watched vids with S2 footage) or wanted to know a head of time? Hell no. Am I upset? Not really. I have had ample opportunity to not be spoiled.

So, while I can dig and support this "Go into every fandom as total virgin territory" approach - it can get really annoying at the same time. How can there be Wiseguy Spoilers? Seriously? The show aired almost twenty years ago! I mean, yeah there is the recent influx of DVDs that allow us to all watch anything ever filmed from beginning to end but also? DUDE! Twenty Years. Knowing that Darth Vader is Luke's father is NO LONGER A SPOILER. Rosebud? A SLED! If you get mad at someone for saying that, than you are overly invested in something and should diversify.

And I pick on Wiseguy cause it is on the top of my thoughts because many of my friends are watching (rewatching) it right now and being so careful not spoil me (I have no time) and I do appreciate their thoughtfulness. It does make me think though - about this issue. This OMG CUT EVERYTHING push we seem as a community to feel. Cause it gets annoying to click on something you think is a spoiler and to find out it really isn't and now you had to leave the main browser page and reload another and back out of it to get to your flist and I am in a supremely bitchy mood today - can you tell?

And I don't think if I want to talk about Paul Anka the Dog, I should have to cut! Paul Anka is not a SPOILER! He is adorable, but the fact that he exists does not spoil you for Gilmore Girls. Yes. There is a dog. Get over it. If you are that sensitive to prior knowledge, maybe a fannish LJ is not the place for you?

And again! GOD! I am so bitchy right now. I take this as a positive sign, actually as I have been Miss Doormat Extraordinaire of late, because, let's face it: I'm depressed and it is easier to just put up with people's shit than take up for yourself or say "no" and I am nothing if not All About the Easy. So, this entirely gratuitous rant about nothing in particular is fueled by me waking the fuck up. Cool. Silver lining.

And now I can't decide it I will ever finish Dead Like Me and this... this actually might be a very good thing considering my own personal issues with the show, anyway.

Oh! And for the past week I have been seized the almost uncontrollable desire to quit my job and sell my car and give Sid to Mom and Dad because I am gonna join the Peace Corp.

Maybe I should stay asleep?

Comments

[keswindhover.livejournal.com]

*gasp!*

Rosebud is a SLED?

p.s. I enjoyed season 2 of 'Dead Like Me' but no one could accuse it of being emotionally uplifting.

[thefakeheadline.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm totally with you on this. My personal outer spoiler limit is six months after official release; after that, I figure I've made a reasonable effort and people should just take responsibility for their own spoiler-free experience. But, of course, I am one of those people who seeks out spoilers voraciously, so obviously there's not much overlap for my viewpoint and theirs anyway.

I don't think casting spoilers should count in most cases, either. Unless, okay, in Smallville if you have an established DC comics character like Lois Lane show up, I can see where that'd be a spoiler. But if it's just a completely new character? I don't see it.

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

Oh, I completely agree with what you've said. I personally continue to cut-tag for things at least 4-6 months after the official DVDs are released, and I'm resentful if people post unwarned-for spoilers in a high-traffic community. But if I go poking around, I have no one to blame but myself, and I certainly wouldn't want other people to have to cut-tag years after something was released just because I wanted to be spoiler-free for everything I hadn't already seen. I mean, that's just nuts. And I generally prefer to stay pretty spoiler-free.

And I totally agree about the casting spoilers, too.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

Wow, you guys are amazing! Avoiding Official DVD spoilers for 4-6 MONTHS???? You guys are, like, saints or something.

Considering the show WAS ON THE AIR and undoubtedly available to download for anybody with the technology or the friends for at least the previous six months . . . or possibly, like Due South, had TWO FULL SERIES RUNS years apart . . . yikes.

My personal "cut for spoilers" extends to a month after the book comes out or two weeks after the episode has been broadcast. I wouldn't even consider cut-tagging something for a tv-show that was broadcast a month or more ago, no matter when the official dvd set came out.

[wesleysgirl.livejournal.com]

I've got people on my flist in several different countries, some of which air seasons a year or more later than we tend to get them here, and not all of them have the means to download eps. I don't consider it an unreasonable amount of effort (obviously) to cut-tag stuff, so I do it. I wouldn't tell anyone else they had to cut-tag for, say S4 of QaF, which I've just seen this week, but if it's aired in the past year or two, I'd rather cut-tag than risk spoiling someone's experience. I know if it's been a long time people are likely to have already been spoiled by someone else -- doesn't mean I have to the someone else. I feel better knowing I'm lessening my chances of ruining someone's surprise, so I suppose I'm doing it for me as much as for the nebulous "them."

[claire.livejournal.com]

Two weeks after the episode has been broadcast?

I mean, OK, those of us who don't live in the US, or perhaps Canada are often a season or two behind on our local TV stations. So in order to not be exposed to spoilers we have to either not read our friends list, or somehow, in those two weeks acquire the afore mentioned episode from somewhere.

Now, it's easy to do so, I admit, should you have a decent download speed. But if you don't or if you are me and are extra careful to not torrent too much stuff because then you get C&D letters and negative attention from your ISP. And my career is in IT - so I wanna be extra careful. So my other choice is friends? Most of my local friends also live in Australia, so I'd have to find someone from overseas willing to burn and send each episode to me as it airs? Well I'm sure someone would if I asked, but I don't want to inconvenience anyone.

So, I'm not meaning you should stop your policy, because it obviously works for you. But there are those of us who are not missing watching the episodes due to laziness or disinterest, but rather geography.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

*shrug* Fortunately for my flist, I suppose, I rarely have anything fannish to say. I mean, the last fannish comment I made was about American Gods. That's been out for years. And anybody who hasn't read HBP in English already (should they care to read it at all) is unlikely to be reading my lj. So if you abhor spoilers, you're unlikely to find them there.

Most of the people who have friended my lj seem like the types to seek out spoilers rather than avoid them.

Waiting a year to post uncut comments about a tv episode still seems odd to me, but I should not be amazed that others wish to do something differently than I do. :)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Oh see, well then. This isn't exactly a driving concern of yours. Pretty much *everything* I post about is fannish in one way or the other. Most of the people therefore following this LJ are fannishly inclined (except for my mom). Spoilers and where to draw the line and what to respect and what to just agree to accept is a real issue.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

I did actually exert myself to think for a while about how difficult it must be to avoid them in the multifannish lj world, though. I mean, I was in DS for four years starting in 2000, and nobody said word one about spoilers, when I'm sure some of my Japanese friends are seeing the full set of RayK episodes -- or possibly any of them -- for the first time, now. They really would have had to stay completely out of the DS fandom arena to avoid them during the mailing list years. Which meant that the people who were on lists were self-selecting as "willingly spoiled."

So after thinking about it, cuts don't seem so unreasonable.

It doesn't help that I'm a spoiler whore myself, or that a good chunk of my job involves searching out other people's reviews for things I've never seen, heard, or read. Perhaps it gives me slanted notions?

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I've missed you. ::squeeze::

And I'm very spoiler-avoidy, but ITA with your post. Once something's been out for a week, IMO it's fair game unless you're talking about it in your own journal (like heres_luck's Farscape posts).

The Peace Corps is a noble calling.

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I've gotten to the point of thinking about gafiating because I'm just so. sick. of the spoiler lunacy at this point. But then I've been tilting at this windmill a long time, and had some massive flamewars erupt on my LJ in the past over this. I finally caved to the cut mania just because I got so tired of hatemail in my box. The whole thing was really spirit-crushing.

You know, weirdly... even seeing DLM 2 a few months after my sister died... I found it kind of emotionally cathartic. You might not, of course, but I'd expected I might get really depressed over everything except Delores, but everything had a purpose, and there is a strange sweetness that pervades the ending. But oh, I've spoiled you by telling you how I felt. Now it would be impossible for you to decide how *you* feel, so you can't watch it anyway. I'm sorry!

[misspamela.livejournal.com]

Oh my GOD. I was going to post this exact post today, and you beat me to it. Hell YES!!!

Once, I was yelled at for "mood-spoiling" someone by saying "X is really hot."

Riiiiight.

Oh, and if anyone wants to make me flip my freaking lid? Use the word "mood-spoiler" arounbd me. Seriously, I dare you.

[claire.livejournal.com]

"X is really hot" is not a spoiler in any sense of the word unless X is in an episodic TV show and a character introduced in the episode that this was mentioned about. In my opinion anyway. In that case, it would be spoilery to say that because people might not know that X is going to be on the show, or they might know that X is, but not know when.

So it's not like the biggest spoiler ever, or anything, but still spoilery under those circumstances.

Of course, this is my opinion only and not intended to make you angry.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I agree with you. I also think we've gotten a little obsessive about just what a spoiler is, to the point that I know I'm cutting for things that I shouldn't need to cut for.

I think too that once something (say, the death of Sirius Black) has worked its way into the general fannish consciousness, it's fair game. Of course, I say that as someone whose spouse got annoyed over being spoiled that Gandalf was coming back.

That said...I think this is another one of those "the price of LJ" things as much as the reaction to the Firefly squee is. We all marched over to this place trumpeting that we wouldn't have to deal with people we didn't like anymore. But the price for that has been that you can't control the content you see. I suspect that's one reason why people are so hyper-sensitive to it. I can imagine someone whom I didn't even know has seen Farscape posting about a major plot point, and while I recognize that it's in part the price I pay for waiting so long to watch it, I don't actually think LJ-cut for major plot points, no matter how old the source is, is that much bother. Unless we're prepared to go back to exclusively topic-focused venues, it's just something we have to continue negotiating. Me, personally? I don't mind cutting for major plot spoilers for things like B5 or the Dark Tower series because I want people to have the same experience I did.

[incredulity.livejournal.com]

Sure you can control the content you see - you choose who to have on your friends list - if people post spoilers, don't have them on your fl. Simple as that.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

Erm...except not.

I have no idea how many people on my friends list have seen Farscape. None. I know for certain that about a dozen individuals have, and know nothing about the rest. I have a vague sense that sisabet is unlikely to post major plot spoilers without a cut but honestly? I don't know that for sure. I friended her because she's clever and funny and I like her, but short of writing her and asking, "hey, do you ever under any conditions post major plot points for anything without an LJ cut?", I don't know if she's likely to spoil me or not. The only way I can find that out is by reading enough to be spoiled for something, in which case...barn doors and horses.

There are a few people who are very easy to suss, but in general? Not so much.

And even then, hey: I like reading sisabet's stuff on Invisible Man. But I've never seen an episode of Dead Like Me. I can't read her IM stuff without also seeing the DLM stuff. I can't. That's what I mean by not being able to control the content. I don't get to read someone's SGA posts without also at least seeing their popslash posts. It's the nature of the venue. So if sisabet starts posting DLM stuff without a cut, I have to choose between having all that given away or not ever seeing any of the other posts I enjoy reading. Which, sure, my decision, but I can't control it based on content. I can only control it based on person.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Well I wouldn't post major plot spoilers about FS w/o a cut. At least not while there are still people I *know* reading on my flist that are watching... but I can't promise that about everything.

I mean - especially Angel and Buffy - major plot points there have seeped into my everyday thought processes. There is not way to separate me from the spoiler without cut tagging every thought in my head. And I shouldn't have to really tear myself up over whether or not I am spoiling the big surprise from season 2 when I think about said surprise ALL the time and reference it all the time and it is just a part of my language at this point.

That, and dying to save the world and then being ripped out of heaven...by my friends. And I love that so much and say it ALL THE TIME and the great thing about fandom is I say it here and people get it and my joke is already set up and that is pretty much why I am here.

Because there comes a point where you wonder what you can say and where and this goes beyond being thoughtful to fellow fen and just becomes feeling stifled.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

See, and this is why I say it's a conundrum rather than anything clear cut ;).

I think there are things that kind of ... seep out into fannish consciousness. It would never occur to me to cut at this point for the ending of LoTR. Not at all. On the other hand, I will probably be protecting the ending of the Dark Tower series until the day I die, because I know a fairly sizeable chunk of fandom has not read it, and God, do I want them to read it unspoiled.

Conversely, as a reader, I know that just being in fandom means I'll be spoiled for Harry Potter if I don't keeo up reading wise. I was spoiled for OoTP before I read it. I wouldn't really expect to be protected from major developments in Buffy and Angel, or (to pick a show I didn't watch) Due South. And yet, I at least hope for it with Farscape. Why? I can't really say. Conundrum.

[maggiesox.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE BOAT SINKS AT THE END OF TITANIC?

Seriously, someone got all mad at me for wondering aloud whether Rome would end with Caesar's murder, and I had to step back before I beat them about the head and shoulders with a World Civ textbook.

[maelithil.livejournal.com]

*blink*

And here I was, pissed that Octavian was not still OctaviUS at this point in time. HISTORY IS NOT A SPOILER, PEOPLE.

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

Word. Wordy McWord to the power of Word. I get that international fandoms make things trickier, but SOP on spoilers is one week past broadcast. When, then is it appropriate to spoil? When the DVDs come out? Is someone going to jump down my throat now if I say that the Lostaways are on an island?

[eliade.livejournal.com]

Rosebud? A SLED!

Somehow I can just hear you saying that. *g* (Actually, I don't think I've ever actually heard you in person. But the Platonic Sisabet that exists in my head does apparently have a tone of voice in this case.)

*nibble*

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I have a Platonic Sisabet. I bet she has really good posture!

My voice is rather disappointing, I'm afraid, but I do think one of the plusses of my writing is that I do sound like I write. Kinda. Just hick everything up and then coat it with a faux drawl that I developed somewhere between Louisana and Tennessee and shake it all up with the fact that when I get excited all rules of grammar fly out the window as does the ability to form complete sentences. Really - it all depends on hand-waving at that point.

[kimera.livejournal.com]

Viewing the premise of a show as a spoiler would be a bit silly, especially since the names of most television shows these days are going to tell you something about the premise- like, you are not going to head into a show called "Supernatural" expecting a... realistic medical drama. Or, "Stargate: Atlantis". The fact that the show takes place in Atlantis is not a spoiler!

Up till a few months ago, I never even worried about cut-tagging spoilers for Due South- the only people in that fandom that I knew on LJ were the people who'd been there since the beginning (or, at least, well before I knew them). But now there's this recent explosion of people watching the show and suddenly I'm having to watch what I say, lest I mention RayK to someone who's only seen RayV, or something. It's a blurry line!

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Dude - but that show is over ten years old. How can you be in fandom and NOT know about RayV/RayK?

Plot points like Victoria and MotB I can totally see keeping mum about and cutting for but the fact that there is a Ray K is NOT a spoiler. Unless you live in 1998.

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

There actually are fans who live in 1997... pre season 3/4...

*rolls eyes*

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

You know - I can totally see this, though. If you get your fannish jollies from one part of something and dislike another - that is your druthers, ya know?

Just that referencing cast members on a show that aired in the late nineties...not so much a spoiler.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

Plot points like Victoria and MotB I can totally see keeping mum about

Nope. I can't. I cannot see creeping about like a mousie about plot points that were broadcast in public the first time in 1997, and the second time in 2000. It's just not a secret any more!

You'd have to be internet-illiterate to avoid everything out there.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

But it would be considered polite and common courtesy if you *know* (as I do) that there are people reading your flist that are currently watching the show for the first time. When I watched (not to long ago)- I knew the Victoria stuff was big cause - hey, in slash-fandom.. I just had NO IDEA. And that was cool.

If I had stumbled on it prior? Also not a big deal - but courtesy, yo.

[kimera.livejournal.com]

Well, not so much that he exists, because, well, I'm all about the CKR-love... but I didn't want to give away too much about his *character*.

And yeah, there are totally some people who live in a fantasy land where season 3/4 never happened (I always think typing "3/4" makes it look like it was three-quarters of a season. hee.)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Oh I see - like you would't want to give away key points of Eclipse or The Ladies Man or something. Me either.

But I think we need to get back to the point that for most people - spoilers are specific. If I say there is a Mountie in Chicago, two Rays and a half-wolf who is deaf.... NOT A SPOILER.

[aukestrel.livejournal.com]

Oh. And WORD.

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

soylent green is people. peeeeeeeeeeeoplllllllllllle.

[kalikahuntress.livejournal.com]

Thank goodness someone made a post about this.

[claire.livejournal.com]

Rosebud? A SLED!

I actually didn't know that.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

How? Did you fall asleep during "Citizen Kane"? I can see that happening - I almost did. I think, actually, that I saw this movie at the exact wrong point in my life. I was a young teenager and all I knew was this was supposed to be the best film EVER MADE.

And I watched it and was sitting and waiting and waiting and the payoff just didn't come. Not like I thought it would. NOW - of course I know that the movie was groundbreaking on so many fronts and we have mined it so much that what was newly inventive and and an amazing leap in cinema, appeared tired to an uneducated viewer.

But even then I knew that Rosebud was a sled. I think there was a Saturday Night Live Skit... or maybe an episode of Threes Company?

[claire.livejournal.com]

I have never seen Citizen Kane. I also live in Australia, so no Saturday Night Live for me. And if I recall correctly, Threes Company was aired at some time here that made it difficult to watch.

I don't actually watch a lot of TV, so I'm trying to think of where else I might have run across that information. I can't really think of anything, but that could be because it's before 7am and I haven't ahd coffee yet.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Well - okay I can see how you are missing SNL (but I am talking classic SNL Jim Belushi-style so that has been out on DVD for a good few years) but what about The Simpsons? And just about any pop culture iconage has included the fact that the Rosebud mentioned at the beginning of the movie is a sled. It is one of those things that anyone who is interested in film the least little bit picks up on - even without seeing the picture.

I mean - fine, you didn't see the movie and you live in Australia. But dude - it was released 65 years ago. You've had opportunity. The secret is no longer sacred.

[claire.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, I didn't say it was bad that you told me, or that I was annoyed or it was a spoiler or any of that. But I did actually manage to get to yesterday without ever knowing Rosebud was a sled. Somehow.

And yes, I'm not particularly interested in film. But your point about the DVDs is interesting, because now I'm contemplating DVD releases. I mean, I've never seen SNL because it's not on here, so I'm not sure the DVDs are available for sale in the stores here. I can't recall ever seeing them, anyway. So that's another thing I'd have to totally go out of my way for. I mean somehow I'd have to learn this show was on, then I'd have to determine I want to buy it, and then I'd have to acquire the DVDs from somewhere. And watch them. The watching thing is probably OK now, but until the last couple of years, DVD players sold here only played Region 4 DVDs.

And I stopped watching the Simpsons after the first season. I find Bart's voice really grating.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Hey we are fans - we *always* go out of our way for things. I have a multi-region player DVD player because the Sci Fi Series "The Invisible Man" only released Season one DVDs in the UK and I am in the States.

Which means I had to order the Region 2 discs from a UK site, figure out the exchange rate, order it and then figure out how to watch it once I got it. And what I went through was small potatoes considering what a lot of fen will do to obtain source.

So, I'm glad I didn't spoil you for anything that you care about - although I do find it highly interesting that you went all that time with it just never coming up. Even in Australia. It is just ubiquitous here. Like Air. Rosebud... Rosebud...

[vileseagulls.livejournal.com]

Catching up on my flist way after the fact - I've heard "rosebud" a million times over in my life, but I didn't know until I got onto google and typed it in that it was in fact a sled. And it wasn't right there, I had to work out it was something from Citizen Kane, then I had to find the Wikipedia entry for Citizen Kane. And the thing that prompted that? An Atlantis fic that ripped it off, with one of the characters saying something else.

New Zealand hasn't screened season 8 of Stargate SG-1 yet, but the US is halfway through season 9. I'm lucky, I've had someone providing me with episodes, but most of my friends? Not so much.

On the other hand, I'm all for smacking people around for things that completely aren't spoilers - the existence of a new cast member, for example, as has been reiterated all over this post. :)

Sheeesh...

[simon2124.livejournal.com]

If you get spoiled too bad. Thank your lucky stars you have food in your belly and the ability to watch the crap they air. Worse things have happened.

[profshallowness.livejournal.com]

Here, belatedly, via metafandom and as one of the international squad, I suppose I get a little more sensitive about spoilers than most, though I agree with what cereta said about it being a conundrum - it depends on what the spoiler is, the nature of the show and how much you want it to be 'discovered' fresh by others. I tend to cut a lot out of consideration for people's f-lists.

I suppose one other issue wrt lj fandom's spoiling is that the promo departments of movies/TV shows are hopeless. I'm not talking about the promoting a premise, but the inability to seperate high point from major plot point. You have trailers that give away key mysteries, so we aren't even talking about opting in and out of spoilerful forums online, and that's the default. I think that feeds into why spoilers are such an issue for fans, as well as what you've already discussed here.

[pigtailedgirl.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom too and damnnit! I spoiler tag/cut tag on things that are very old. Well, most my fannish joys like Due South(hello denial/unliking 3/4 fan!) and Roughnecks are old anyways but that's not the point. Cause then the point would be long live the 90's.

The point is I didn't get it's a bad habit and people would be annoyed.

I'm not sure why I do it either. Most people reading, either don't know the fandoms or do, and no one cares either way. I think maybe I just want to give people the opportunity to back away if it'll throw them (But then ehy would old fandom throw them?) or leave suspense for my posts maybe. Or I dislike long entries?

Well thank you for the thought bubble.