Buffy Fan... No Mention of Apologies Anywhere In this Post

[sisabet]

I realize now that I don't think I will ever be able to have a rational conversation with someone that does not like Buffy, possibly because my love for her is not rational.

I also hesitate to post my thoughts about Buffy and the seasons because it seems whenever someone tries to post why something works for them - what it is about the show that just made them very, very happy -- the people that respond to that post are overwhelmingly negative and insist on recounting, to infinity, their own issues.

Issues that we have already covered and which have nothing to do with the poster's statement get brought up, again.

And I understand that if you watched Season whatever of a television show and it did not work for you, that you possibly will want to discuss this. And I think that responding to a positive post with reservations is a perfectly reasonable response.

I cannot help the part of me that then just wants to scream "SHUT UP, SHUT UP!! I AM SO SICK OF THIS, SHUT UP!

I don't think I will ever be rational. I also don't think that I will ever convince anyone who felt betrayed by Season Whatever that it wasn't actually personal and that Joss is not Satan and Marti Noxon does not eat babies, and it isn't all about Spike or it isn't all not about Spike and Buffy is actually very likeable and so is Xander, Willow, Dawn and Spike. Yes, even Spike. And Giles had a role and instead of bitching about it, let's find out what that role is.


And I know this to be true because season 7 has only been finished for 2 years and already I am weary and ready to abandon the fight and hide out in a cave until it all blows over and I know that Buffy wouldn't do this. She would hit the comment button and respond to the negativity. Actually, she'd probably make it worse as talking things out is something she struggles with - but you see where I am going here.

I just can't do it anymore. My blood pressure can't take it. I am tired of the same damn arguments and it bugs me and it isn't rational and it isn't in the spirit of whatever, I am just sick to fucking hell of all of this shit.

Find a better show that had a seven year run. Find it. Want to argue that it went downhill after Season 3? Fine. Find a better show that had a seven year run. Find better arcs, better continuity of characters, better dialogue and emotional depth. Find it.

God, most of our shows are killed before they have time to even try to achieve something close to what BtVS did accomplish. This sucks - I hate it. But in this one instance we were given a complete run of a girl to woman's story and I love that we have that. I love the story that was told and was it perfect? Hell, no. Nothing is ever perfect. It feels more real because of the flaws, actually.

But to me - there could not have been a more perfect story told to me over the course of the six years I watched. It was told to me. And I loved it and it made me so happy in those years and so I am not rational.

I am also a person who grew up attached to a television. I have watched much TV my friends. Oh, the TV I have seen. I might not be a scholar of pop culture or whathaveyou, but I can tell you the song that was playing in the background when Alex P Keaton got his first serious girlfriend and I can explain the intricacies of the Ewing clan and why Ray and Lucy getting it on was seriously gross and that once upon a time, Sarah Jessica Parker was not only likable, she was inspirational. I can tell you that there always had to be a blond(e) and brunet(te) in any dyad and cite examples of Dukes of Hazzard and Too Close for Comfort.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer was the best television series I have ever seen. This statement is mired in emotion and yeah - I won't ever be able to rationally discuss it.

So I give up. Not on Buffy. On being rational.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Um. Wow. Step away from the computer and go breathe some fresh air. There is an actual world out there. One that does not include television or livejournal. 'Tis good, I promise.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Ironic considering you are reading my LJ.

Piss off and leave me alone - seriously. I am an adult and I am allowed to like what I like and feel passionately about whatever it is I want to fucking feel passionately about.

People are funny that way - we get excited about a wide variety of things. I happen to think that is one of the things that make us worthwhile.

So, just stop being getting your mundane all over my LJ.

Fucker.

::kicks something::

[coiledsoul.livejournal.com]

word, Word, WORD!


Ya know (and please don't take this as stalkery weird or anything because I swear I'm really not) I really do hope to meet you someday. Why? Because invariably your reactions to instances and the ideas you have about fandom and music and often life in general are so similar to my own feelings that sometimes I wonder if you haven't drilled a hole in my brain.

With your permission, I'd like to link this entry at my own blog.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Link away - and I can always be found at Vividcon. Last year I was found at Slayage, too.

I'm like Waldo in a way. I even have stripey socks. Well, one stripey sock.

[absolutedestiny.livejournal.com]

I have so little buffy exposure but I still read this post and said "RIGHT ON!"

I'd use my 'fuck yeah' lj-icon but I think an Agent Cooper would agree with me too so you get the Coop thumbs up.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Man, I love Agent Cooper so much - he helped me get me through my horrible freshman year of high school. He gives me the thumbs up!

::is honored::

[batwrangler.livejournal.com]

Have you considered screening/disallowing comments on Buffy posts? I suppose it may be more trouble than it's worth, but I like to hear why things work for other people (regardless of whether they worked for me).

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Well - no - see cause while I actually end up hating it - I do feel that everyone is allowed to their own opinion and they should have the option of expressing that opinion.

I just am ranty about it. And not rational. And having a very bad day, actually.

[kadymae.livejournal.com]

Find a better show that had a seven year run. Find it.>>

Homicide: Life on the Street

Actually no, can't make that arguement. HLOTS and BtVS are tied for first in my book.

And of any other show that's gone 7 seasons or more, nothing else comes close to either of those.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I tried with The X Files - just taking the first seven seasons and yeah, it can't stack up.

[mcfeste.livejournal.com]

I imagine that the arguments -- and especially the bitching -- are beyond wearisome for a show that lasted as long as Buffy did. I just got into Jossverse a little over a month ago (my primary fandom is QAF), and I've been hesitant about posting my (positive) thoughts sometimes because I'm afraid everyone is over it. But I'm just not the type to be overly bitchy -- I'm loyal, and I'm an ensemble fan by nature, so there are no characters or pairings I hate. I tend to rationalize everything, even irrational behavior. :)

So yeah. I'm a "find the positive" kind of girl. And so far, BtVS and AtS are telling some of the best stories I've ever heard on TV.

[sunryse00.livejournal.com]

Find a better show that had a seven year run.

Just because I like a show doesn't mean I have to like *everything* about that show. It doesn't mean I have to like every character on the show. And it doesn't mean I thought Joss was God and have to bow down to all his plot choices. If you want to say it was the greatest thing you ever saw or that Buffy was a wonderful person that's your prerogative. It doesn't mean I have to agree with you because I won't.

Once you put it out on the internet, unless you label it as "only positive comments and if you don't agree don't reply" people will defend their view as much as you defend yours. In this fandom not everyone will agree with you because in this fandom no one can agree on anything.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Um... if you read my post, you have to get I am not saying any of this. I am venting and ranting and dude - I *know* this fandom disagrees on everything.

I'm just tired of it. I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to dissent. I'm just tired of it. I'm not saying we should all hold hands and sing a song - but wouldn't that be nice? - but I am tired of constant negativity, Buffy bashing and Joss Is Eval.

I'm not saying my desire for these things trumps your distaste of whatever. I'm just saying: Show me better television.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

Much as I've done my share of kvetching about...well, any number of things, there is a point at which you have to stop pissing on people's cheerios. Sometimes, the inability of fans to read posts and discern what sort of response is appropriate amazes me. I'm not talking about never saying a contrary word, but dude: a post full of squee is not the place to vent your dislike of something.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Word. I pretend to be rational about my girl, sometimes. But I'm so not. I love her, I adore her, I admire Joss so much for giving her life.

Buffy was a girl who became a woman. It was a rocky and dangerous path, but she triumphed. She inspired other people to become heroes. She kicked ass and saved the world a lot.

And she and the show were quality.

I adore my new show, Stargate SG-1, but it's no Buffy. I don't expect it to be. Buffy was special, I truly do believe that. I know that Buffy can empower women because it has empowered at least one specific woman, namely, me.

[sweetestdrain]

Your post makes me want to rewatch Buffy. I like that - that your enthusiasm and love for something can come through so vividly in your written thoughts, and in your vids too, of course. It's very inspiring on many counts.

And, on a somewhat related matter! I loved your vid 'SOS' and I had to actually start watching Farscape just so I could get over my insane obsession with it. (Someday I need to learn how to leave feedback at the time, but, y'know. Random comments are fun.) Also, I started watching Invisible Man after seeing 'Weeping Willow', which is gorgeous.

(Actually, come to think of it... the whole thing I just said about you bringing enthusiasm and love into your work? You should stop that. Now. Please. I don't think I can keep up with any more fandoms.)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Hey! Have you seen Stargate Atlantis??

[kimera.livejournal.com]

You know, I've never understood the people who say they "hate" something- and *continue to watch anyway*.

I mean, as linzeems knows from my frequent babbling as I watch an episode, PR will sometimes frustrate the hell out of me, but really, I love and enjoy all of it. The cheese, the silly bad guys, the characters, the plots (even when they contradict themselves!). Besides, name me ONE other show where fanon actually became canon.

But on the subject of Buffy- even though I had Issues with parts of it, as a whole I loved it. It has a special place in my heart and is always the first show I pimp out to people who are looking for something good to watch.

[obsessedmuch.livejournal.com]

Rant on, girl. Love your Buffy with all your heart and tell everyone who disagrees to piss off. Love her with Angel or Spike or Riley. Love her alone. Just... damn, she brought us all INTO this. And while I might at times have wanted to poke her with a clue stick... I still stuck around and I still cried when it was over and... yeah.

Also, I feel your defensive growliness. Try liking Riley. *growls*

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I do! I think Riley is the bees knees even when he was being an idiot! I love him for being an idiot because that is what people do: sometimes we are stupid and need kicks in the pants and sometimes we do the exact wrong thing, or say the wrong thing, or believe the wrong thing or love the wrong person.

Also, Riley is hot.

from mom

[retired-mom.livejournal.com]

Honey,
Take off those idiot anonymous people....Why and how did they find your LJ anyway....sounds to me he/she had nothing better to do then go on and randonly search for things to disagree with...maybe someone needs to tell him/her there is a big world out there and he/she can go back to it....I love your post except for the language...after all I am your mom...love...

Re: from mom

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the language. I am upset - today was rough and I have a lime green suit to wear to church this weekend and I think I need some cookies and a nap.

But hey - I think I will FINALLY have that new phone tomorrow. I'll call you.

Giles

[retired-mom.livejournal.com]

love the Giles icon....mom

Re: Giles

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I love this icon as well.

[debchan.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on the Buffy love. She'll always be my girl.

It's sad, but during the last years of Buffy and Angel I had to avoid a lot of LJs because I couldn't take the hatred directed toward my shows. Not nitpicks on individual episodes (I've done that myself) but week after week of bile. When I hate a show and/or character that much? I stop watching.

[heresluck]

Yes. Exactly. What you said.

[piper47.livejournal.com]

Hey beautiful ;)

You know what was ironic? I *just* finished an episode of Buffy and decided to get on LJ and first thing I saw was this post. What are the odds?

This is why I'm glad I'm not fannish about Jossverse because I'd probably go nuts. I've talked about this before... I can't be fannish about Jossverse because, regardless of the fact that I watched to bitch!smack! Xander in Season 6... I love that show so much. Yeah sure, sometimes it did things that I didn't like, but come on. It was *beautifully* written. You don't have to like it, but you can't argue that it wasn't a fabulous plot/writing. It just was.

I used to be jealous that Jossverse hadn't been my first fandom, or been something I was involved in at all, but now I'm not. I get into fandom and I get bitter. I hate the shows I am fannish about usually, which is odd. I actively hate parts of Roswell... there are episodes I will just not watch again because my *GOD* it was bad. And it only lasted three years because of how bad it was. The show failed it's viewers. The plot lines got bad, the actors stopped acting and everything was just painful to watch towards the end.

Buffy *never* failed you. Angel *never* failed you. I remember being bitter and not watching Buffy after Hells Bells. I didn't... I've seen most of those episodes since then, but when they aired I didn't want because I was upset. But seriously... I got over it... and yeah sometimes I'm bitter, but it was a *beautiful* plot line. It worked. For better or worse, Joss loved his characters and is a *very* good writer. He's good at what he does. And if anyone tries to argue that, send them over to me. I have episodes of Roswell and Smallville they need to watch and then we can discuss bad writers.

I've never really liked Buffy. Not the show, the character. Her and I had some issues early on, and while they are irriational... I'm still lukewarm to her. I don't hate her, she is a brillantly written character and I respect that. I have a lot of respect for that.

This post just reminded me why I'm glad I was never in this fandom and have gotten to know this show through reruns. I couldn't listen to people argue and have shipper wars and "OMG! Spike is *evil*!!" all the time. I just couldn't... You do that for shows that are bad; you bitch about Lana, get into fights about whether Lex is the big evil or not, stick Dreamers and Candys in a room and let them fight it out. Because the show is bad and honestly... you get bored bitching about the show so you tear into characters and into each other.

To what point or purpose does it have, when the show was actually good?

That baffles my mind.

::hugs::

Take a deep breath and wow... I don't know. Get yourself some sugary goodness.

[lorax.livejournal.com]

*cheers* I've done my share of complaining about certain aspects of Buffy, but overall it was a GREAT show that even in what most people claim was its weakest season, STILL gave us the single best episode of its run - or so most agree. It was clever, it was fun, it was touching, it was silly, it was everything it was intended to be, and that's saying something. Most shows by their sixth and seventh seasons are hauling in the big-name guest stars, doing the wacky nonsensical farce storylines, or just changing things so radically that longtime fans are left going WTF! and staring aghast at the screen.

It wasn't perfect, but it stayed true to the show it was, and it showed us a girl become a woman, a victim become a warrior.

And Buffy as a character? She's flawed and headstrong, nonsensical at times, self absorbed at others. She's hypocritical and dismissive of the opinions and feelings of others at times . . . and you know what, that's why she rocks. Because she's flawed and human and she has bad days and whiny days and days where you want to smack her. She's very real, which means you don't like everything about her - but I still love her.

Buffy rocks, and so do you. Yay to positive memories of a beloved show.

[beamer242.livejournal.com]

You know, in all honesty, I don't think there is a single character I dislike. Okay, sure, when I started watching, I hated Xander and I couldn't stand Angel. But that was before I started to spend quality time with pre- season six Xander, or started watching AtS, where I could observe Angel in an environment that kept him away from Buffy. There is also no season that I hate, although I enjoy some more than other, and I think that there are story arcs that I think could have been done differently. However, I am not the creative driving force behind the Jossverse, and if I was, well, the to be honest Buffy would not have lasted seven weeks, let alone seven months.

I think what I am saying, mostly, is that your post echos what i have thought and felt since I first entered into fandom. I think my stance on the Jossverse is one of the main reasons I remain on the outskirts of this fandom. I prefer to ignore the ugliness, not because i don't want to admit it exists, but because it makes me cranky. I really dislike being made to feel like I'm an idiot because I actually liked season seven, or because I don't feel a burning hatred for Joss because he 'abandoned' Buffy during season six.

I can't point out any inconsistencies with any character because I am able to sit back and realize that people change. That the person I am today is nothing like the person I was seven years ago, so therefore, it only makes sense that Willow, or even Spike would change and do something that might seem out of character until you stop and think rationally about how much time has passed, and how they have had a chance to learn and grow. Because that is what life ultimately is about - learning and growing .

::sigh:: I really didn't mean to say this much, and I'm sorry to have hijacked your journal. Please forgive me and know that I stand beside you in this manner. I love my shows. I love them just the way they are, and I honestly wouldn't change a thing if I were given the opportunity.

[nerdanel.livejournal.com]

I like Buffy, both the show and the character. I have very, very positive thoughts about it, and really don't have an offhand criticism. My love for her and it (the show) is probably as irrational as yours is, and I make as few apologies. Now, Angel? (both show and character) Don't even get me started. Perfection, man. Perfection. Got anything else to say? I CAN'T HEAR YOU! :-P

In lurking around the edges of Buffy fandom, I found immediately that not everyone else shares my opinion on this. Point of fact, there are these people who HATE Buffy and who HATE Angel (and who even more irrationally hate Buffy and Angel together, but I won't go into that :-P) My response to that has been to choose to ignore most meta discussions, except for those I choose to conduct from time to time on my own journal...because I just don't want to hear it. I respect and value the opinions of those who dislike the show. They can post about them wherever they want, including the front page of the New York Times, if they can get it to run. I just won't be reading it, because I don't want anything to tarnish my shiny little Mary Sunshine view of these shows. They are the most beautiful thing since sliced bread, and I just don't even want to know anything that can destroy that. Rational? Who cares whether it is or not :-P

So, yeah, I'm with you through all that. The only thing where I disagree slightly is this:

Find a better show that had a seven year run. Find it. Want to argue that it went downhill after Season 3? Fine. Find a better show that had a seven year run. Find better arcs, better continuity of characters, better dialogue and emotional depth. Find it.

I have little to no experience with TV outside of BtVS/AtS/QAF, so I don't know whether or not there is something "better" out there. I tend to think not, because I love these characters so very much and I don't think that most mainstream TV is going to sell me quite this well. BUT, I don't think that means that dissatisfied fans/former fans can't express their opinions to the contrary. That is, the very fact that "nothing better" exists doesn't mean that the current thing is perfect (although I believe it is, dammit!) or that there aren't flaws to point out legitimately. I know what it's like to care about a show so intensely it hurts - and then to feel that it took a dramatic turn downwards and is now going down the tubes. Three letters: Q A F. And when you feel like that, you want to vent, and you want to express that opinion - not because you don't care about the show and want to proclaim to the world that it sucks, but because you DO. And I *get* where people who feel that way about Buffy (no, I refuse to even acknowledge that people can feel this way about Angel BECAUSE I CAN'T HEAR THEM LA LA LA :-P) are coming from. I disagree with them strongly, and try to avoid reading their thoughts, but I get that.

Just rambling around to say that I mostly agree with you, but also understand people who need to vent about things, and why they need to do that. I will shut up now :)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I am in no way arguing that BtVS was perfect (although Angel? It is like we share a MIND). I am saying - as someone who loves television - what that show accomplished is just incredible and I can't find anything out there that can rival it.

I think everyone can have their opinion. I just can't process the negative rationally anymore. So I rant. Because that is what I do. Rant. Sometimes I vid. Sometimes I rant and vid and those times? My vids suck.

Ranting levels increasing directly affect vidding outputs in the negative. Since not vidding is also directly proportional to me not being relaxed or happy -- I try not to rant. But then I do. Cause I am weak and petty and just me and so I can't feel to bad about the weak and petty part. Cause we all are weak and petty in our own ways. My way just happens to be Buffy-related.

[swanswan.livejournal.com]

I'm going to be a fireman when the floods roll back.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

::clutches you and cries::

God. I love that.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

Buffy fan. I love the show. Season 1 through season 7. I went through withdrawal when we lost the WB in my market.

It was always smart, always funny. It spoke to my fears as a former teenager. It spoke to my fears as a parent of a tween. It entertained me with snark, and gave me tweedy librarians as sex symbols.

From the moment I stopped on a blond guy confronting a trenchcoat clad darker guy yelling "You were my sire, man, my Yoda" in a fake Brit accent, I was hooked.

It dragged me back into fandom. It introduced me to fanfic in a formal fashion. And it is responsible for much of my fannish output even today. I may no longer be in the fandom, but I'm in fandom.

And yeah, SJP on "Square pegs" was totally my hero.

[chartophile.livejournal.com]

I have nothing useful to add. Just wanted to say I love Buffy too

[heresluck]

Well, I'm not giving up on rational. But then rational is my day job. *g*

What frustrates me and makes ME irrational is not so much disagreement per se as TYPE of disagreement. I guess this is sort of an elaboration on the second paragraph of your post -- this distinction I think you're making, and which a lot of people seem not to understand, between "disagreement" and "negativity."

It's one thing to respond to a thoughtful post about characterization and plot (or structure, or gender, or, hell, clothes) with an equally thoughtful comment saying "Huh, I didn't see it that way -- I understood it in this other way." It's another thing to respond to that thoughtful post with a whiny "But I didn't liiiiiiiike it! It's not what I waaaaaaanted! It's all about meeeeeeeeeee!"

I mean, this is LJ -- there is plenty of space for all-about-me. I am totally in favor of all-about-me...in one's own LJ. But when someone's inviting thoughtful discussion, folks who don't want to be thoughtful should just go away. It's about the ability to recognize a post's intent and tone (analysis or rant!) and to respond in an appropriate fashion.

Having said that, I think this may be too intellectual a response to your rant. Heh.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I depend upon your intellectual responses to my rants. They anchor me.

You've actually nailed down the thing that bothers me the most, but at this point I am to dead to actually discuss it. Also - I wrote the word cocksucker in a comment and my mom read it and I am a bit freaked by this.

[eliade.livejournal.com]

, the TV I have seen. I might not be a scholar of pop culture or whathaveyou, but I can tell you the song that was playing in the background when Alex P Keaton got his first serious girlfriend and I can explain the intricacies of the Ewing clan and why Ray and Lucy getting it on was seriously gross and that once upon a time, Sarah Jessica Parker was not only likable, she was inspirational. I can tell you that there always had to be a blond(e) and brunet(te) in any dyad and cite examples of Dukes of Hazzard and Too Close for Comfort.

Hee. Very cool. *g* I think TV as a medium doesn't get a lot of respect from some cultural critics; I think it's pretty amazing myself, but I had to get over an initial bias inculcated by Harlan Ellison. (Harlan has much to answer for.)

[luminosity]

I hesitated to even comment on this--not because of any one thing, but because I agree with you *so completely* that I feared total redundancy.

It's not the "I don't/didn't like x, y or z." It's the overwhelming, beyond-all-perspective negativity. You post a squeeing fannish post and negative people come out of the woodwork. They set up straw men and knock them down, they throw the baby out with whatever episode bathwater's messing with them. Where a simple "I didn't like it" would suffice, instead the irrationally fannish of us, whose corner I inhabit, are bombarded with stink bombs of name-calling and condescension. And you can't just come out and howl at the moon, even on your own freaking LJ because some condescending *eeeeediot* is going to come in and anonymously tell you to chill or non-anonymously pat your little head and point out the *obvious*. And that's not dialoguing either.

Just because you love something that doesn't make you stupid. Or a lesser person.

I *heart* Buffy. I *heart* everything about her. Even when she was fucking up, I adored her. So, I'm not rational either. And don't even get me started on Angel. We all know where I stand with Angel--or kneel, as the case may be. You're totally right, sisabet. NOTHING on TV was as good as Buffy. Nothing. Nothing had as glorious a run as Buffy. Great characters, great writing. Even when I didn't like the plot, I loved the way it was presented and the characters who brought it to life. And I love Buffy. Always and forever. Amen.

yeah, so it was redundant. oy.

[nerdanel.livejournal.com]

And don't even get me started on Angel. We all know where I stand with Angel--or kneel, as the case may be.

You don't know me from Eve Buffy, but I fangirl your vids from a distance, ever since I was introduced to them courtesy of f1renze. So, I have to express my gratitude to Angel for making you kneel, because the byproducts? Genius. And this is completely not the right place to say this (sorry, sisabet)...but then again, maybe it is. Because...it's from the fans who feel such strong positive emotions towards these shows that great vids (or fannish outputs in general) come. Who that "hates" the shows, or that "hates" the characters, is truly putting out wonderful quality derivative work? (not a rhetorical question, I'd like to know) My guess is that there aren't many such people.

Which, again, isn't to bash the people who have issues, because I get where they are coming from even if I don't feel the same way. BUT, they shouldn't get in the way of the people who do feel that love. Because it's those people's love from which we all benefit. :)