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sisabetSo I was replying to comments from yesterday's post about Spike and Angel and Wes and I realized that -yet again - I am incredibly long-winded and not that thought out, and that there was still another post in me - specifically about why A/W/S just does not work for me.
Now - let me restate this: This is just for me. This is *why* for me - it does not work. My take on the characters is just that - my own. Actually - it isn't really just my take. I've got a bit of Kita's Angel, sprinkled with Lum's Dominant Wes-Theory that is supplemented by TBQ's development of Wes and topped off by Miss Murchison's theory of Spike. Somewhere in all that is Netweight's comments about how Buffy/Spike/Angel would work.
So everything influences everything else and I am not so much an originator of ideas as I am a synthesizer - I will be reading something one of the lovely ladies mentioned above and I will find myself nodding along and agreeing and then trying to not only fit this new idea into my pre-existing notions, but also to make it work in keeping the Angel-verse a compelling place for me to spend my free mental time. It also gives me reason to vid the show. If I no longer had new thoughts about these guys or no longer found them interesting or had nothing to say about them - well I couldn't vid them. You have to understand or at least feel like you understand a character or a group dynamic or have a story to tell (one of the three and often all of the three) in order to make an effective vid.
Period. That is just all there is to it. At least if you are me. I can watch a vid about nothing more than Character X is hot - but unless you tell me *why* he is hot - besides "LOOK AT HIM NAKED!" then I just won't care and I will be bored on a second viewing. I might be bored on the first viewing unless the nakedness is really good nakedness. That'll usually entertain me for at least three minutes. But after that I want some depth, dammit!
And if you don't understand who it is you are vidding - well then you can't do that. And sometimes it becomes this kind of connection (GOD I AM PRETENTIOUS) to the character that you really cannot explain verbally - at least for a while. This is why I am grateful to have found a medium like vidding - I can *show* you. I can show you *exactly* why I think Angel is the sexiest thing I have ever watched on television and it has a lot less to do with him taking off his shirt and a lot more to do with him getting to the point where he can set Darla and Dru on fire and then just watch without flinching. Yes - he looks good in that scene - very handsome - but the hotness radiating off of him in that moment has very little to do with his physical appearance and everything to do with his mood, mental state and the fact that we know he is just that *close* to losing total control.
That is freaking hot. At least it is to me and while for the longest time I could not explain what it was about him that *got* to me - at least not effectively - I could show it. Thank god.
But all of this is influenced by other people and their takes on the character and so I pick and choose what I like and how I like it and I store it up there in the Angel Section of my brain (which is pretty much the entire frontal lobe up there - I really hope I won't need any information on the Battle of Hastings cause that shit is gone).
I just want to get that out before I *finally* explain my Angel/Wes threesome issues cause I have a hard time expressing myself so that I am not misunderstood sometimes (like I don't really want to smack Xander, but I just want to *smack* him - see the difference?) and also none of what I am about to say it actually my idea - this is a lot of other people's ideas and this is just what I make of it.
And also - it is All About Angel. Just so you know going in. There is love for Wes individually. There is love for Spike individually (although that is mixed with wanting to smack - also, shake). BUT - for me - it is All About Angel. Even when it is about Lex. If the house was burning and I could only save one - I think we know who that would be.
Now if the house was burning and Wes and Spike are unconscious on the floor and I can only save one - well I'd probably have a nervous breakdown.
And I know who I would choose - but that is private and the reason I would choose him would have nothing to do with my feelings about him (be it as a person or a vampire) and everything to do with Angel.
Just like a good little cult member.
::smiles beautifically::
Now I am cutting to talk Threesome:
My take on the Angel/Wes dynamic is almost exclusively with Wes as the dominant partner. This does not mean I don't think Angel is dominant - I think that he has and is and will continue to be to an almost pathological extent.
Just, with Wes and Wes alone - it is different.
This does not mean that I don't think his relationship with Spike is important or a Big Deal. I do - but it is different - completely different- than that of the Wes relationship.
And here is where I explain why. Maybe - this is difficult. See, I have this Wes in my head and he is a total sonofabitch. I mean really - he is and always has been - and he is also very sweet. That is the great thing about us humans - we can be so many things. Wes is also loyal to -again like Angel with the dominance - to a pathological extent.
It is not conducive to a happy life - Wes's feelings - and it is extremely maladaptive - but that is how and who he is and that makes him very real and vibrant to me.
And I really just can't ship Wes with anyone else other than Lilah (and again - that was All About Angel to me). I don't feel any Wes/Gunn vibes although I know a lot of people do - that is just... no, it does not work for me because Wes with all his heart and soul and mind - Loves Angel.
This is an undisputed truth for me. I mean you could bring me a notarized statement signed by Joss Whedon himself stating otherwise and I am sorry - I just won't believe it.
Wes loves Angel. With everything in his being. With a focussed intensity that is scary.
And I so get that. I do.
And Angel - god. Angel is an idiot. I've said it before and I will say it again - Angel has the emotional maturity of a ten year old and what does he know about being in love with a human man and how is he gonna make this work and the very thing that makes Wes so terrifying also allows Angel something he has never ever had before (souled) and that is a place to just let go.
And he can - because Wes can handle it. Wes is just dark enough and sick enough to take it and turn it around and give it back to Angel and for once - Angel does not have to restrain himself cause Wes is there to do it for him.
Well, that just freaking gets to me.
I want my boy to feel safe. ANGEL!!!! And in my head - Wes gives him that. Wes is the only one (for many many reasons - the main one being he is the only person that is Wes) that can give him exactly that.
So then when I think about adding Spike or Gunn or anyone to that mix - I really can't do it because it mainly boils down to how very *private* the Wes/Angel relationship is to me. It is almost this sacred, scary thing - and that is what makes my stomach hurt over them - that Angel has never ever had this before and that Wes would do *anything* for him and it becomes this very vacuumn like place where NO ONE ELSE IS ALLOWED.
Mainly cause then Angel can't let go. He can only do that with Wes. And potentially - much later, after Wes is gone, with Spike - but there is a ton of problems with that as well, cause in my head Spike so does *not* want Angel letting go of control. Mainly cause then people die - but also because Spike never ever never wants to be in charge. Ever. And he totally disrespects anyone that tries to put him in charge (Miss Murchison says he needs a leader - like Buffy or Angel). Those times in his life where he was in charge are pretty much unmitigated disasters and he knows it.
So you have Spike - needing Angel to be the Dominant one in all aspects. And you have Angel - so tightly wound and controlled that you can see the tension radiating off of him. He is a master of repression because he has to be and it has taken him over 100 years to even get to this point.
I think I am just quoting Lum at this point but -- Spike was able to get control of himself in about three weeks post-souling. It took Angel over a hundred years before he could reliably trust himself around humans...and even them...
Angel is repressed because he has to be. And I have a thing for that. I have a thing for so many of the things that Angel is - I just can't tell you. Gah.
But when you then have this very special relationship with Angel and Wes and you add in Spike - I just can't really go there and keep it the Wes and Angel in my head. Again - this is the Wes/Angel in my head. Spike just doesn't belong there.
So then (again) in my head - I have Spike as the usurper trying to take this away from Angel (and now I go totally irrational) I become incensed because Angel *needs* this. And then I am all mad at Spike. Because of what he did. In my head.
And WES DIIIIIEEEDDDDD!!!
Don't be dead Wes, don't be dead.
But I still love Angel/Spike and if I write anything Angel-verse, it will be them and usually that is what I read (although not for a while cause of Clark and Lex - but before Brian and Justin and then Clark and Lex - there was A/S). I love this dynamic for totally different reasons and yeah - I see how Angel can eventually let go with Spike, but GOD - it takes forever to get them there and not that I am complaining at all - and I can add in Buffy and it really does just make it better - but Wes doesn't fit there. Not to me. And Wes doesn't work with Spike for me because WES LOVES ANGEL.
Spike works with so many easily because he is a very loving guy. I can see Spike falling for just about anyone under the right circumstances - Spike is not the problem.
But for me, everything Wes does is All About Angel and hey! This might be why I won't ever write Wes cause Mary Sue much?
Now I'm not saying don't write Angel/Wes/Spike or don't write Wes with other characters - I am just saying this is my take on the dynamic. This is not the *right* take - this is just my take.
And I wanted to share and explain. Cause I love it. I really do. It is a very special relationship that exists. In my head.
Now - let me restate this: This is just for me. This is *why* for me - it does not work. My take on the characters is just that - my own. Actually - it isn't really just my take. I've got a bit of Kita's Angel, sprinkled with Lum's Dominant Wes-Theory that is supplemented by TBQ's development of Wes and topped off by Miss Murchison's theory of Spike. Somewhere in all that is Netweight's comments about how Buffy/Spike/Angel would work.
So everything influences everything else and I am not so much an originator of ideas as I am a synthesizer - I will be reading something one of the lovely ladies mentioned above and I will find myself nodding along and agreeing and then trying to not only fit this new idea into my pre-existing notions, but also to make it work in keeping the Angel-verse a compelling place for me to spend my free mental time. It also gives me reason to vid the show. If I no longer had new thoughts about these guys or no longer found them interesting or had nothing to say about them - well I couldn't vid them. You have to understand or at least feel like you understand a character or a group dynamic or have a story to tell (one of the three and often all of the three) in order to make an effective vid.
Period. That is just all there is to it. At least if you are me. I can watch a vid about nothing more than Character X is hot - but unless you tell me *why* he is hot - besides "LOOK AT HIM NAKED!" then I just won't care and I will be bored on a second viewing. I might be bored on the first viewing unless the nakedness is really good nakedness. That'll usually entertain me for at least three minutes. But after that I want some depth, dammit!
And if you don't understand who it is you are vidding - well then you can't do that. And sometimes it becomes this kind of connection (GOD I AM PRETENTIOUS) to the character that you really cannot explain verbally - at least for a while. This is why I am grateful to have found a medium like vidding - I can *show* you. I can show you *exactly* why I think Angel is the sexiest thing I have ever watched on television and it has a lot less to do with him taking off his shirt and a lot more to do with him getting to the point where he can set Darla and Dru on fire and then just watch without flinching. Yes - he looks good in that scene - very handsome - but the hotness radiating off of him in that moment has very little to do with his physical appearance and everything to do with his mood, mental state and the fact that we know he is just that *close* to losing total control.
That is freaking hot. At least it is to me and while for the longest time I could not explain what it was about him that *got* to me - at least not effectively - I could show it. Thank god.
But all of this is influenced by other people and their takes on the character and so I pick and choose what I like and how I like it and I store it up there in the Angel Section of my brain (which is pretty much the entire frontal lobe up there - I really hope I won't need any information on the Battle of Hastings cause that shit is gone).
I just want to get that out before I *finally* explain my Angel/Wes threesome issues cause I have a hard time expressing myself so that I am not misunderstood sometimes (like I don't really want to smack Xander, but I just want to *smack* him - see the difference?) and also none of what I am about to say it actually my idea - this is a lot of other people's ideas and this is just what I make of it.
And also - it is All About Angel. Just so you know going in. There is love for Wes individually. There is love for Spike individually (although that is mixed with wanting to smack - also, shake). BUT - for me - it is All About Angel. Even when it is about Lex. If the house was burning and I could only save one - I think we know who that would be.
Now if the house was burning and Wes and Spike are unconscious on the floor and I can only save one - well I'd probably have a nervous breakdown.
And I know who I would choose - but that is private and the reason I would choose him would have nothing to do with my feelings about him (be it as a person or a vampire) and everything to do with Angel.
Just like a good little cult member.
::smiles beautifically::
Now I am cutting to talk Threesome:
My take on the Angel/Wes dynamic is almost exclusively with Wes as the dominant partner. This does not mean I don't think Angel is dominant - I think that he has and is and will continue to be to an almost pathological extent.
Just, with Wes and Wes alone - it is different.
This does not mean that I don't think his relationship with Spike is important or a Big Deal. I do - but it is different - completely different- than that of the Wes relationship.
And here is where I explain why. Maybe - this is difficult. See, I have this Wes in my head and he is a total sonofabitch. I mean really - he is and always has been - and he is also very sweet. That is the great thing about us humans - we can be so many things. Wes is also loyal to -again like Angel with the dominance - to a pathological extent.
It is not conducive to a happy life - Wes's feelings - and it is extremely maladaptive - but that is how and who he is and that makes him very real and vibrant to me.
And I really just can't ship Wes with anyone else other than Lilah (and again - that was All About Angel to me). I don't feel any Wes/Gunn vibes although I know a lot of people do - that is just... no, it does not work for me because Wes with all his heart and soul and mind - Loves Angel.
This is an undisputed truth for me. I mean you could bring me a notarized statement signed by Joss Whedon himself stating otherwise and I am sorry - I just won't believe it.
Wes loves Angel. With everything in his being. With a focussed intensity that is scary.
And I so get that. I do.
And Angel - god. Angel is an idiot. I've said it before and I will say it again - Angel has the emotional maturity of a ten year old and what does he know about being in love with a human man and how is he gonna make this work and the very thing that makes Wes so terrifying also allows Angel something he has never ever had before (souled) and that is a place to just let go.
And he can - because Wes can handle it. Wes is just dark enough and sick enough to take it and turn it around and give it back to Angel and for once - Angel does not have to restrain himself cause Wes is there to do it for him.
Well, that just freaking gets to me.
I want my boy to feel safe. ANGEL!!!! And in my head - Wes gives him that. Wes is the only one (for many many reasons - the main one being he is the only person that is Wes) that can give him exactly that.
So then when I think about adding Spike or Gunn or anyone to that mix - I really can't do it because it mainly boils down to how very *private* the Wes/Angel relationship is to me. It is almost this sacred, scary thing - and that is what makes my stomach hurt over them - that Angel has never ever had this before and that Wes would do *anything* for him and it becomes this very vacuumn like place where NO ONE ELSE IS ALLOWED.
Mainly cause then Angel can't let go. He can only do that with Wes. And potentially - much later, after Wes is gone, with Spike - but there is a ton of problems with that as well, cause in my head Spike so does *not* want Angel letting go of control. Mainly cause then people die - but also because Spike never ever never wants to be in charge. Ever. And he totally disrespects anyone that tries to put him in charge (Miss Murchison says he needs a leader - like Buffy or Angel). Those times in his life where he was in charge are pretty much unmitigated disasters and he knows it.
So you have Spike - needing Angel to be the Dominant one in all aspects. And you have Angel - so tightly wound and controlled that you can see the tension radiating off of him. He is a master of repression because he has to be and it has taken him over 100 years to even get to this point.
I think I am just quoting Lum at this point but -- Spike was able to get control of himself in about three weeks post-souling. It took Angel over a hundred years before he could reliably trust himself around humans...and even them...
Angel is repressed because he has to be. And I have a thing for that. I have a thing for so many of the things that Angel is - I just can't tell you. Gah.
But when you then have this very special relationship with Angel and Wes and you add in Spike - I just can't really go there and keep it the Wes and Angel in my head. Again - this is the Wes/Angel in my head. Spike just doesn't belong there.
So then (again) in my head - I have Spike as the usurper trying to take this away from Angel (and now I go totally irrational) I become incensed because Angel *needs* this. And then I am all mad at Spike. Because of what he did. In my head.
And WES DIIIIIEEEDDDDD!!!
Don't be dead Wes, don't be dead.
But I still love Angel/Spike and if I write anything Angel-verse, it will be them and usually that is what I read (although not for a while cause of Clark and Lex - but before Brian and Justin and then Clark and Lex - there was A/S). I love this dynamic for totally different reasons and yeah - I see how Angel can eventually let go with Spike, but GOD - it takes forever to get them there and not that I am complaining at all - and I can add in Buffy and it really does just make it better - but Wes doesn't fit there. Not to me. And Wes doesn't work with Spike for me because WES LOVES ANGEL.
Spike works with so many easily because he is a very loving guy. I can see Spike falling for just about anyone under the right circumstances - Spike is not the problem.
But for me, everything Wes does is All About Angel and hey! This might be why I won't ever write Wes cause Mary Sue much?
Now I'm not saying don't write Angel/Wes/Spike or don't write Wes with other characters - I am just saying this is my take on the dynamic. This is not the *right* take - this is just my take.
And I wanted to share and explain. Cause I love it. I really do. It is a very special relationship that exists. In my head.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 09:40 am (UTC)Yeesssssssssss.
What you said. =)
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 09:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 10:02 am (UTC)and I have no A/W icons. That's a shame.
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 10:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 11:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 01:30 pm (UTC)Right there with you.
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 03:11 pm (UTC)And you think YOU'RE irrational!?!?
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 06:06 pm (UTC)::is irresistible::
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 05:35 pm (UTC)And Angel - god. Angel is an idiot. I've said it before and I will say it again - Angel has the emotional maturity of a ten year old and what does he know about being in love with a human man and how is he gonna make this work and the very thing that makes Wes so terrifying also allows Angel something he has never ever had before (souled) and that is a place to just let go.
And he can - because Wes can handle it. Wes is just dark enough and sick enough to take it and turn it around and give it back to Angel and for once - Angel does not have to restrain himself cause Wes is there to do it for him.
Very, very, very true.
no subject
Date: 2004-08-27 07:59 pm (UTC)The reason for why I can't read A/W/S is because Spike gets shoved out. He's a needy bastard that wants to be the centre of things, but I think for the most part it's Wesley in these stories that becomes the lynch pin in the middle that ties in everything and Spike ends up forgotten and shunted off to the side. Oh, lets face it, it's probably just because I'm an A/S shipper at heart and I don't want someone coming in and possibly upsetting their dynamic instead of bringing them together. Is it a scary thing that I get jealous on behalf of fictional characters?
*goes to book myself in for therapy*
no subject
Date: 2004-08-28 09:20 am (UTC)Wes loves Angel.
He totally does. That one's canon, dude.