I Had a Moment...

[sisabet]

A reminder while I have a free moment: Angel is new tomorrow. Prepare for your day of obligation.

A warning while I have a free moment: If you want to go into the last remaining eps (OF THIS SEASON! - Shut up, shut up, shut up - I can't hear you, lalalalala...*in denial*) totally unspoiled - do not watch the WB promos. Cause that would spoil you, apparently.

A whine while I have a free moment: my head hurts. I thought it was just sinuses and would go away when I took my Claritin-D. Then the pounding started. Ibuprofen has been consumed - we shall see what happens.

A thought while I have a free moment: gender and the Angelverse - the need to take responsibility for one's actions appears to be dependent upon one's sex. While "A Heroes Downfall" is a common theme and has affected every major cast member - it only appears to be the male characters that suffer repurcussions (or are percieved as needing to atone) - Wes with the betrayal of Angel, Gunn with his deal with the Panther and subsequent knowledge, Angel with...well - Angel every season. Lorne not so much - but he is probably just window dressing/greek chorus. They all have to pay - or feel the need for redemption. Fred goes after a human with murderous intent - and ends up breaking up with Gunn (who kills for her) and that is pretty much it. Cordy makes a deal with Skip to be demonized - and then is tricked into believing she is supposed to be a higher power - and it told it is "not her fault"

I'm not arguing that all characters need to be punished or atone (AtS makes that argument, not me) - I'm just thinking about this right now. Lilah, apparently, is a man in the show's eyes and Darla was redeemed by her uterus. Which is interesting. I'd think about it more - but my head hurts.

Also - in this same vein I am pondering a vid - and Spike. Spike is hard for me to grasp in general - but thinking back - has he ever had his moment of betrayal (think Wes Season 3 or Gunn current season)? I really can't think of anything - where he did the wrong thing for what he felt were the right reasons - that would correlate with the rest of the characters. I suppose the Doyle/Lindsey thing could have played out that way - but it didn't. Not at all. So I think Spike is probably a woman in the show's eyes - or at least Angel's wife. Which fits with what I am seeing.

Comments

[wolfling]

There's also Faith -- who certainly was shown having to atone. Guess she's a man in the show's eyes too. Which fits nicely in with the idea that any fic with Faith in it is a slash story...

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I thought about Faith, and then I decided that (mostly) 4 eps over 5 seasons does not a major character make. I kinda feel the same way about Doyle. Doyle is just delaying The Wesley.

Spike's mistakes

[superplin.livejournal.com]

Well, there is Dead Things, where he tries to keep Buffy from turning herself in, and attempts to protect her by making an (unsuccessful) attempt to hide Katrina's body.

Of course, the big moment of betrayal is in Seeing Red. That's where he betrays even himself, because he realizes he can't always keep his own promises. Hardly a case of doing the right thing for the wrong reason, though.

But his situation is a bit different from the others, anyway, because by Jossverse rules betrayal of any kind was the norm for him, pre-soul. For example, he worked against the Scoobies with Adam at the end of S4, but that wasn't portrayed as any big heart-clutching moment, it was shrugged off as typical and perfectly expected.

Re: Spike's mistakes

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Yeah - see Spike screws things up all the time - but not like Angel Characters screw things up.

Also - he didn't have a soul - since he has had a soul he has been the most morally upright character I can identify - which both shocks and does not shock me. But his journey is completely different from any other major character - as far as I can figure out - everybody else has these Fallen Hero moments - Wes with Connor, Gunn with the Cat, Cordy with Skip -- where they do something that they *think* is right - but because they are doing the right thing - for selfish reasons (Wes is acting alone because he has isolated himself out of pettyness, Gunn is selling himself for knowledge because he is tired of being seen as "the muscle", Cordy agrees to ascend and believes that she is becoming a higher being out of vanity) and wait a second...

Spike got a soul for selfish reasons, to give Buffy what she deserves, and now he is in line for the Shanshu - which everyone assumed was Angel's reward.

You reckon there is anyway I can tweak the soul-getting to have it correlate with Wes, Gunn and Cordy? Cause I'd like that.

[saifai.livejournal.com]

Too tired to think about the redemption issue at the moment, but as for the Spike thing I'd say it was the egg thing. He'd done that to get some money to help Buffy out. Good intentions, not a good idea.

Thanks for the reminder about the new episode. I've been wondering... Oh, and totally unspoiled here to thanks for the warnings about the preview trailers.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Well his motivations about the egg dealio were never clear - the whole thing was a very silly plan - which was in character - but just fell flat - plus - no soul. Can't sell what you don't have and on the Angelverse there is always the metaphorical (and often the quite literal) selling of the soul.

I mean - sometimes you can get a truck! Man, Spike and Gunn should be tight.

[elinora.livejournal.com]

Promos? What promos? There are no promos. (Covers eyes and ears)

Spike is so a woman in the Jossverse, but rather than doing the wrong thing for the right reasons I think his problem is doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

He went and got a soul not for himself but for Buffy. He saved the world twice, not for the world's sake, but first to piss off Angelus, and the second time (Chosen)for Buffy.

Hopefully, in the remaining eps this season he will start doing nice things for Angel, and they can settle down properly.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Spike is so a woman in the Jossverse, but rather than doing the wrong thing for the right reasons I think his problem is doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.


You just gave me a Bingo moment -- totally. Wes and Gunn and Cordy also all did what they thought was the right thing -- but for all the wrong reasons. Selfish motivations.

In the Angelverse - only when you act Selflessly - is that the appropriate action. Like Doyle or when Spike gives up his first shot at being corporeal.

Angel made a sacrifice for his son - but it was not a selfless sacrifice - he was selfishly motivated - to betray everyone so his son might have a shot at happiness.

Has Angel ever done anything completely Selfless? There was the act of attempting to save Darla in "The Trial" -- but was that Selfless? If it was and he was rewarded with Connor, then it would fit the model.

::thinks really hard::

Selflessness

[superplin.livejournal.com]

Ah, see, I came here to reply, and see you'd already got to where I was going.

If I were not in the middle of A Very Nasty Work Deadline for which I will be up all night, I'd have more to say about this. Maybe if I still have some working brain cells tomorrow, I'll give it a shot.

Re: Selflessness

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I would love it if you did. All of a sudden I am seeing the potential vid's concept - it could be "heroes and their victims" - I wanna vid that. Help me with your great big brain, Plin. You are my only hope.

[http://users.livejournal.com/lady_alatariel_/]

Although both Cordy, Darla, and now Fred paid the ultimate price, death

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Fred and Cordy DIED because of their mistakes. Cordy because she went with Skip, directly. Fred because she chose evil at one point, which I believe made it easier for her to choose it again, when she agreed to go to W&H. Once you go gray in Jossverse, there's no going back.

Angel's moment of selflessness was The Trial, definitely. Although, in Old Gang Of Mine, he also told Fred to point the weapon at him, knowing she could have easily killed him. And I would argue that his very existance in S1-early2 was pretty damn selfless. He was out there risking his ass every day for no apparent reward or reason. Just doing good to do good for the most part.

Spike with a soul hasn't made any grand gestures morally, in terms of 'right thing for the wrong reason' or vica versa, and I don't think he will this season either. AtS isn't so much about the Grand Gesture. That's Buffy's gig, you know? Jump off towers! Die in a blaze of glory! Save the world! AtS is more about quiet, unending pain. Redemption. Yea.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Well - I'd argue that the people in the Angelverse who died got off easy (and Cordy did get to come back - as did Darla) - all except for Fred - nothing easy about what she got, nothing at all... but the thing is that the *gang* never held either Fred nor Cordy accountable for their actions - Wes and Gunn and even Angel have had to re-earn trust - or are still dealing with the fallout. The women just die.

I don't know that Angel's motives in The Trial or TOGoM were anymore selfless than Spike's in Chosen - different sacrifices for the people they cared about - but still a commitment to sacrifice because they cared about someone else and wanted to save them. Same as Buffy, really...

And quiet unending pain. Oh yeah.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I wasn't arguing about Spike's motives in Chosen, only Angel's in the eps I mentioned. I refuse to ever ever debate the worth and righteousness of two vampires who as far as I can tell, are indeed, husband and wife. Who is which of those, well, that I'd debate. (Spike=Wife. Oh yea.)

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I can't debate that Spike is not Angel's wife, because he is. Is there someone out there that disagrees? I thought this was one of those universal opinions - wait... do we as a fandom even have a singular, universal opinion - something we all agree upon?

(And normally I'm not all up on the compare and contrast of valid morality between Angel/Spike - but I'm dissecting for a vid - so that means I get to turn everything upside down and shake it - I need meta - y'know?)

Pictures

[cristophoros.livejournal.com]

you write and you write and you write...but not time for a picture...don't you think your devoted following deserves a picture that isn't from Halloween. Just a suggestion.

Anyway,

I'm sleepy

Re: Pictures

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Well, I write because this is my journal and that's what you do with a journal...and really - everyone reading this that needs to know what I look like - already does.

I don't think I even *have* a current picture of me.

Re: Pictures

[cristophoros.livejournal.com]

I figured as much...why is it you don't like pictures of yourself? Just curious.

Cris

Re: Pictures

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I am not photogenic - so I'm not all that eager to pose when people whip out the cameras. Unless they will let me make a funny face - I like doing that - I have a lot of pictures of me crossing my eyes.

Re: Pictures

[cristophoros.livejournal.com]

That's where the Boy gets it then...he can take pictures well...but would prefer to make a funny face if you allow him too...you have to actually tell him to smile. BTW Booger is getting tall.

[nashvillain615.livejournal.com]

Angel's wife...

*groan*

I'm going to bed now.


Kimi

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

They are so married.

[nashvillain615.livejournal.com]

God, I can hardly wait until you and Lum get here!

K

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Wheeee!!!

[nashvillain615.livejournal.com]

I mean it. Really. See my journal. I'm actually making a guest room. So you two can come early if you want. Stay longer... I even moved the computer in there!

*sings*I have a guest room... I have a guest room...

K