sisabet | Spoilers, HUH, Good God! What Are They Good For?

Spoilers, HUH, Good God! What Are They Good For?

So yesterday when I bitched about overly sensitive spoiler phobia, y'all got that I was in a really bad mood, letting off steam, and not calling for a revolution whereupon we all post every major plot twist in every genre show ever on the front pages of our LJs without a cut tag, right?

Cause I was in a terrible mood that turned out to be mainly hormonally directed and when I got home and conferred with

tzikeh and

just_eunice it turned out that I wasn't as spoiled for Dead Like Me as I thought I was. I mean - I am now but the thing that I thought happened that would cause me just not to watch the show didn't happen the way I thought it happened or it does happen but it doesn't mean what I think it means or maybe, just maybe, I should not make leaps of plot assumptions over an off-hand comment conversation between fandom_wankers.

Perhaps, and here is a novel idea, I should abandon the concept of fandom wank altogether? Except... some of that shit is funny. Apparently, I am fascinated by the inner workings of the Harmonians - a group of HP shippers that firmly believe in Harry/Hermione as not just a pairing and not even a life-style choice, but as a higher moral calling. And there is plenty of text dedicated to the analysis of this group and My GOD - it is almost like a great big sociological study with all the human foibles well and clear represented and you can just see history and trends and everything showing up in this one group. Well, that and the HP fandom is nutz, yo.

So, no abandoning fandom_wank. If I get spoiled, thems the lumps and generally people make an effort to not give anything away. Actually, I am much more likely to be spoiled for major plot points in print media or by Comedy Central. I mean, The Daily Show totally spoiled me for "Million Dollar Baby" but the joke was just so great that I didn't care. It also kept me from taking my mother to see that movie, so in this case, The Daily Show did me a favor. It did. Except...the movie we went to see instead was "Diary of a Mad Black Woman" and so maybe they just screwed me over? Cause that was a terrible movie. It wasn't even enjoyable terrible. It just sucked.

So, as

cereta and I discussed in comments, there is this fine line of what to talk about openly and what to put behind cut tags listing spoiler potential warnings and I think this is just gonna have to be something everyone works out for themselves and that works within their own comfort system.

Here is how it will work on this LJ:

When "The Daily Show" spoiled a MAJOR plot point of Million Dollar Baby for me, I didn't care. The joke was funny and the movie had been out a while and won some Oscars. I didn't watch it - I accept the fact that movie is entering into a greater Pop-Cultural Lexicon and I missed my chance at jumping on board.

When I was 16, I read an article in Newsweek that gave away the "twist" in "The Crying Game" and I immediately talked

drdawn into taking me and my best friend to Bowling Green to see this movie. Then I watched them both during the big, ahem, reveal. I had a blast. It was fun to see their reactions (which was mainly a triumphant "I KNEW IT!" from Rhonda) and it was also fun to participate in something culturally. Movies with twists are like that - Fight Club, The Sixth Sense - they entertain but they also foster a sense of being in a club. If you walked out of a packed theater in 1999, the larger sense beyond the movie was that you have just shared something with a group of people, an experience. And that is valid and wonderful and also? One of the halmarks of fandom.

So, I can see keeping some things under wraps. Major plot points are probably the thing that we have to keep in mind - however; there also comes a time when these very plot points become re-referenced and cannabalized and become part of something beyond the text. They become part of our everyday lives.

I will not cut for major Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Series spoilers. I will not warn before referencing them. I talk about this stuff all the time and I use it to explain other stuff. It is second nature and I am sorry if it is too much of a risk for someone to take while reading my LJ. The DVD sets have been out awhile, and the fandom and fannish bleedover has just been sooo pervasive that I don't feel as if I am stomping on anyone else's good time just by virtue of mentioning how the day I have had working for the man, completely maps to that one time Faith went evil and worked for the Mayor.

Cause, see - that is funny. I forgive almost anything if it brings in the funny. I'd rather laugh any day than be surprised.

Things that are not major plotpoints are not spoilers. Repeat this with me: major plot points are SPOILERS. Finding out, 4 weeks after an episode airs, that Amy Acker was on it? NOT a spoiler.

If I say "Kurt was really funny on last week's ep of Gilmore Girls" or that I liked House's black t-shirt in that one ep or that I think Bruce on the Dead Zone is the worst Physical Therapist alive (but the best and most in love friend eva!) because he lets Johnny get away with using a cane that is obviously NOT NEEDED -- none of these things are spoilers.

Fraser is a mountie, Rube is a reaper, Mulder has issues, Adama is your daddy, and Riddick is freaking hot. NOT A SPOILER.

But at the end of the day - everyone has to find their own comfort level. There are some shows that are better the less you are spoiled because the 180 turns are sooooo 180 turns. I will never try to spoil anyone ever for I-man or Farscape because of this, buuuuut on the other hand I am a vidder. Once text/video has aired it is fair game and I have been recruited to MANY fandoms on the basis of a damn good vid, prior knowledge of something I like happening, and visual spoilers out the whazoo.

One of the things I ADORE about

vagabondage's Hard Core Logo vid "Monster" is the fact that she fully invests in the concept of the vid, in her character and his first person statement and she does not flinch at all from massively spoiling the end of the movie. Kudos! The vid is driving perfection and the slyness of picking a Henry Rollins song for Joe Dick... well at the time I thought it was interesting but now I know it is just another layer of meta to pick apart. I LOVE SHIT LIKE THIS. Whee!

So, I know where my personal comfort level is and I know where I draw the line - and I know that vids TRUMP ALL. Spoil me, break me, anyway you want me, if it's in a vid, baby, it's alright. If it makes a funny joke - cool. If I'd had plenty of time to watch the original source and just haven't - fine.

So I am cool with me - aren't y'all glad to know? What this means regarding my posts is fairly simple: I'll try to cut tag major plot points on anything that isn't Buffy and Angel, but I can't guarantee that something won't slip out. It won't be from a just aired episode - I still abide by the One Week principle on that, but some things just enter into our greater fannish lexicon and I'll drive myself insane trying to remember to always cut for that.

Likewise, once a movie spoiler has entered the greater pop-culture mentality - I don't feel bad referencing it. Like "Citizen Kane" and Rosebud: Once the SIMPSONS have redone and referenced a major spoiler (on the heels of everyone else) then it isn't the best kept secret anymore. Once a commercial is made mocking the great revelation in The Empire Strikes Back - it becomes moot.

And anyway - secrets don't make friends. Or something - whatever. So - this pretty much where I am at right now and as always the defriending/friending door is always open and no questions will ever be asked. Feel free to use as needed.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

One of the things I ADORE about [info]vagabondage's Hard Core Logo vid "Monster" is the fact that she fully invests in the concept of the vid, in her character and his first person statement and she does not flinch at all from massively spoiling the end of the movie. Kudos! The vid is driving perfection and the slyness of picking a Henry Rollins song for Joe Dick... well at the time I thought it was interesting but now I know it is just another layer of meta to pick apart. I LOVE SHIT LIKE THIS. Whee!

EXACTLY. Exactly. Partly because if you've seen the film you're really really thinking, "no, she *won't*!" but she *has* to, and she does, and it - well, if that vid is sex (hey - you get your kicks where you want to, I'll take mine from Joe Dick), that's the orgasm.

Well, it is one of the best examples I can come up with of showing full vidder investment in her subject. The fact that she does what she has to do in service of her vid makes me so happy.

Yeah it is important to respect the source and the fandom and the whatever of whatnot, but when it comes down to it, what gets me going and makes me happy are vids. And Vids that go for broke and don't hold back are the reason for this.

Wait... Faith went evil?!

:)

Yes. As did Angel (several times) Spike (well he starts out evil and then hits an inverse) and Willow. Some fen believe Xander also goes evil but to them I say phooey. Oh and Anya, kinda. And Buffy that one time. And I still haven't figured out about Giles.

Pretty much the only one who didn't switch sides was Dawn, and she wasn't even real.

Dawn isn't real?

I'm ruined.

I've gone round and round about spoilers. I don't especially care one way or the other, but I know that dem's fightin' woids for a lot of people on my friendslist. There was a poll on the Lost comm about spoilers, and there were options of "it's a spoiler if it aired some time this century but I haven't seen it yet" or damned near that anyway. Okay, so, yeah. I suffered through Lost last night. Guess what. They're on an island, and things aren't copacetic. And there are numbers that seem to mean something. Did that spoil you? Yeah? Oh well.

I think it's ridiculous for someone to bitch about being spoiled about a movie that's been out for 60 years, for one thing, or a TV show that aired over a week ago. (and hey, did you know that Lana's parents were killed in a meteor storm? No? Oh! and yeah, Buffy died. TWICE.)

But yeah, vid trumps all.

Lana's parents died?? OMG - that is so terrible. And she never says anything about it at all.

I can see respecting people who haven't had a chance to see the show yet because it isn't in their market (like with Serenity and waiting for a universal release) because that is just good citizenship. But don't get mad at me cause I said something about Boone being dead. I don't even know who Boone is. Someone on my flist is upset about Boone and I asked why and apparently he died and it may or may not have been compartmental syndrome and as you well know - compartmental syndrome is an abiding interest of mine.

But near as I can tell he died almost a year ago and was he Charlie from Party of Five? Whatever happened to Charlie? Did he die? Or am I confusing it with Six Feet Under again? Was he on that show as well?

I have rarely seen a movie that had a "twist" without knowing about what it is, not because I went looking for spoilers, but because they happened. I learned what the "twist" in "The Crying Game" was the night before I went to see it (which didn't bother me because I thought the movie was about so much more than that, it's not even funny); I learned about the "twist" in "The Sixth Sense" about a week before. That's life, and no one's fault.

While I get frustrated with a certain element of spoiler-phobes, I also recognize that I don't always understand what other people consider spoilers, so I generally try to default on the safe side, which is part of why the cuts when I post to

sportshoes, the Wiseguy community. I don't get it, but it's obviously important to people. (I also cut because, wow, can I get windy. *g*)

The thing is, I really don't have a concept of "spoilers," and at least part of that is because of where I started in fandom. I've said this probably ad nauseum, but Blake's 7 was my first fandom, and is both an example of a lot of my attitudes and tastes, but also influenced them. When I got there, the show had been off the air for a good six or seven years, and the fandom was well established--and I don't think it ever occured to ANYONE not to tell newbies that everyone dies at the end. The end of the show was a major part of the fandom itself--a good half of the stories in the fandom were all about what happened next/how did it happen/how do we make it not happen/whatever. I actually think most new fans got told how it ended up front just to keep out those that couldn't take it. It's a grim show, so you better know what you're getting into. More than anything, though, it was just a fact of what happened. I don't think it ever occured to anyone not to talk about it openly, no matter the venue, and it never occured to me to be upset that people told me about it.

Spoilers? What are those?

Really, I have very little filtering ability to tell me what is a "spoiler" to most people, and what isn't. Which is why I get yelled at a lot. Which is why I try to cut-tag whenever it occurs to me, just in case. Because I don't like being yelled at. *is delicate*

I lucked out with "The Sixth Sense" in that I went to see it opening day (a PACKED matinee) without reading any reviews so I really didn't even know there was a twist. I just knew it looked kinda scary, had a creepy kid and Bruce Willis and that was enough for me to say "Oh - yeah. I want to see that."

So - it was a really cool experience in that the MOMENT I pinged to what was going on (which was admittedly late in the game - just before she dropped the ring) I started looking around and watching other people's reactions and that was a blast. You could watch people get it and watch the people who DIDN'T get it and that is one of the best things about a crowded house. Sigh.

I was 16 with "The Crying Game" and you are right - it is about SOO much more than a penis, however; knowing about the penis is probably the only thing that got my teenage self to a theater to watch a movie called "The Crying Game" so there is always that. And I believe I am a better person for it.

As far as Blake 7... y'know, that is something I'd want to know going in. Seriously - fandom can operate of levels or waves and if you are a first wave fan, if you watched during the original run, then that experience is all for you. Now, we can try to imitate it for newer fen but really and truly - it is not and will never be exactly the same. And if a friend of mine pimped me into a show where everyone died and she KNEW they were all gonna die and didn't warn me? I'd wonder if she even knew me at all. Perhaps I have not been as clear about my issues and needs. I didn't know that Butch and Sundance went to Bolivia for almost twenty years! Because I was happier that way, apparently.

Cause I can deal with bleak endings. I can. Sometimes. I just need a lot of warning and hand-holding and the ONLY time I ever lifted my No-Spoiler code for Angel was "Does Lilah die?" and "Does Wes die?" which then became "OH GOD NO, what about Gunn? No, don't tell me. Wait, tell me. No don't! OH GOD!"

And I get that feeling of "Want to know, don't want to know." My problem with people comes in when they don't acknowledge that it's THEIR issues and, therefore, their responsibility to do something about it, not mine. What I really don't get are people who:

1. Read entertainment magazines and then complain about being spoiled. Guess what? You're likely to be spoiled for certain things from movies if you read certain magazines. Know this going in and know it's your responsibility to avoid them.

2. Cannot differentiate between a teaser and a spoiler. I know people who won't watch teasers because they don't even want to be spoiled that much for an upcoming episode. Frankly, I really don't get this, but they know what they don't want, so they avoid it themselves. It's the people who whine about it that irritate the crap out of me. Personally, I love teasers. There are good ones and bad ones, but ultimately, you know what you're getting when you hang around for the end credits of the show.

3. Do the "mood spoilers" you mention, because OMGWTF?! I get wanting to come into something fresh without any undue influence about how other people felt about it, but if you're not going to watch the episode/movie in real time and don't want that kind of influence, then it's you're responsibility to stay away from where you know people will be talking about it and not come on to LJ and then whine about how people have squeed or complained and thereby ruined their experience for you. If you're that easily swayed anyway, you need to pick up a backbone at Vertebrates R Us.

Okay, I feel better now.

WORD

I have decided that I'm not going to worry about spoiling shows that have been and gone... *unless* I know that someone on my friendslist is watching it for the first time. Which is all well and good, cause nobody watches even *half* the crazy shit I do.

Anyway, all I have to say is: Peter Caine invented Kung Fu! hah.

Wait! I thought that was David Carradine??

OMG CARRADINE IS CAINE!!! YOU SPOILED ME!

Carradine is like... three different Caines. They use a lot of bad wigs.

I totally watched Kung Fu back in the day. Unfortunately the day was 1981 so I have very little memory of it. I remember "What's Happening" much more clearly.

I do know I loved it. I do know there was a railroad. And a grasshopper. And I had a crush on him.

Hee! Have you ever seen the sequel? With ~~Mini-McKay~~ Nicky? It's so utterly cheezy and 90s. I love it.

I have vaguely suppressed all knowledge of this.

Now why would you ever want to do that?

Oh, right. (http://pics.livejournal.com/kimera/pic/000129hf)

And you let these things into your brain on purpose!

I watch Power Rangers. By definition I have no taste ;)

Did you ever see that post back when the last Star Wars movie came out (it may have been referenced on Fandom Wank) where some kid complained that she was "spoiled" on LJ for Anakin being Darth Vader.

Someone immediately responded, "Rosebud is a sled." The kid replied, "Huh?" or words to that effect. Immediately, dozens of people made posts revealing the identity of Kaiser Soze, the twist from the Crying Game, the identity of Soylent Green, etc. I don't know if anyone ever explained things to the poor kid who was so new to pop culture she'd never seen "Empire Strikes Back."

I wish I'd saved the link.

Man - I grew up knowing Soylent Green was people before I ever even knew there was a movie about it. It is just one of those things you have in your mind - like a genetic memory.

Someone immediately responded, "Rosebud is a sled." The kid replied, "Huh?" or words to that effect. Immediately, dozens of people made posts revealing the identity of Kaiser Soze, the twist from the Crying Game, the identity of Soylent Green, etc. I don't know if anyone ever explained things to the poor kid who was so new to pop culture she'd never seen "Empire Strikes Back."

Diez and iz ded.

And, by the way, The. Ship. Sinks.

You spoiled me!!!

Just for that I'm going to tell you the Greeks won the war. With a fake horse thingie. (My daughter swears one of her classmates was indignant that she'd spoiled him for "Troy.")

I swore when Troy came out that the first person I heard complaining about being spoiled for who won was going to get beat over the head with several volumes of the encyclopdia while I screamed "Arma Virumque Cano!!!"

There was some reader who wrote into People and complained that an article had spoiled them for the ending of Sixth Sense. People responded that the movie had been out on video for some time and the reader could have seen it before now.

I know that there some issues about Spike crossing over to Angel, especially since he was dead. Way before Angel started back articles (with Spike on the cover of magazines) were all over the place and yet people were trying hard to be unspoiled.

I know I'm very careful what I say when I'm either in line for a movie or just leaving the movie. I've been spoiled as I was going into the theater because someone was talking very loudly about the movie.

I still don't get how anyone can be spoiled about RayK in due South. There are enough fans of CKR and pictures of him as RayK all over the place. There are stories all over the place, etc.

I think we spend a ridiculous amount of energy absorbed in so-called casting spoilers. Spike coming over onto Angel? Not so much a spoiler as an inescapable fact. We knew before Buffy was over - so his death on that show was actually a surprise for me.

Here is the deal, though: There is no way I am gonna be in fandom on any level and NOT hear a few things that are upcoming. Lois Lane on Smallville? There were people getting bent out of shape about that and then the WB PUT IT ON ALL OF THEIR PROMOS. Life will not be an endless series of unexpected delights - get over it.

And in the case of the entire OMG CASTING SPOILER Ben Browder to be on Stargate next year! SHHHHH! I say WTF? Other than hearing that the dude from FS is coming over, what does this tell you about the upcoming season? Who will he play? No. Will he be a lead? No. Just that you will see this actor in a role, on this show, sometime in the near future. Which actually, if the dude in question is CKR, that can't be a spoiler. I have recently realized he is in EVERYTHING. In fact, a few weeks ago I almost became convinced I could conjure him with the power of my mind because I thought about him and then turned on "The Dead Zone" and lo and behold... huh. The dude works a lot.

Did you know that Ray K played in a punk rock band and is a Cylon??

I'm all over these spoiler things...

CKR was on an episode of Supernatural, but I didn't catch it.

See? Everything. I think there was a Canadian Law passed that if a show is filmed there and he happens to be in town... he must guest star.

Except "Higher Ground" for some reason. Everyone else was in that show, but not CKR. It's strange!

We only have ten actors in Canada. So we recycle.

You really are not lying.

We are starting to export them to other countries now, like New Zealand *is amused by this*

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Spoilers, HUH, Good God! What Are They Good For?

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject