sisabet | Hate the Song, Like the Vid?

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Hate the Song, Like the Vid?

I'm starting to react strangely to food. I couldn't eat an entire donut this morning. I mean - I had already accepted the points and could spare them and I started eating this donut and for about three bites it was really really good and then... well it was still good, just not <i>that</i> good and then it was just too sweet and so I pitched it. We are at Day 12. I no longer feel like a lioness in a Lorne Greene's Wilderness Special, stalking gazelles. I'm not even particularly hungry right now. I don't know if I've lost any weight - my jeans are a bit looser today but jeans stretch so who knows? I *feel* guant and wasted and the very picture of waifish-near-deathedness. I don't *look* it. Even at my eating disordered best, when I could wrap my hand around my upper arm (awww! Memories!) I never looked waifish. I think it is impossible for me to look waifish. I am the Anti-Waif. It is like, some things I can achieve and some things are in a box labeled "not for Liz" and waif-status and the ability to do a cartwheel are both taped up tight in that box.

But in my mind's eye I scoff at Kate Moss, "Shyeah. Poser."

Then I slink off to grab a smoke with Donatella.

What was I gonna post about? Oh yeah - music.

Hee - surprise, surprise. I know I am waaay overdue for the overview on Americana but I totally have a valid excuse and that excuse is that it is HARD. Do you have any idea how many genres and cross genres and blended genres of music there are that can be labelled as Americana? Do you know that if you add a teeny tiny bit of reggae to some Delta-influenced blues it becomes something completely different? This is not yellow and blue make green. This is yellow and blue met and then talked about red and after a while they threw in some purple only they didn't know it was purple because it wasn't as if the blue and the red had even mixed it up in this setting. Then they made Chartreause.

Or however you spell it.

gwyn_r and I were discussing critical feedback of song choice over on sdwolfpup's <i> excellent Feedback 101 post. Admittedly, it is... and I am straining to get this across as sensitively as I know how to be, because it isn't as if I do not appreciate every bit of feedback I receive and it isn't as if I am not used to this and already know and accept that I bring most of this upon myself (and I know this as soon as I say "Oh, this song is all about X"). But, yes -- the reaction to something phrased as "I absolutely hate this song but I really liked your vid" can be... it can be off-putting. At first. Then you shake it off and move on with your life because, hey! They liked your vid. But part of you is sad. Yes. Sad.

gwyn_r made the point that music is intensely personal and she is absolutely right. I can't think of another form of expression that I identify in as much and as intensely than music. I have no musical abilities. Until two weeks ago I believed I was tone deaf. But I love music and I get excited about music and when I am excited about something (which, honestly - Most. Of. The. Time.) I want to share it. I want to tell the world about it. I want the world to go "OH WOW! This is great!" and then I want the world to back off very quickly before they ruin it because this is MINE. See, it is funny. I want to share and have other people enjoy this thing that is really cool - but not too many people. Or not all the time. MINE.

Dude. Not rational at all.

But, and I cannot speak for all vidders, I can only speak for the vidder that is me (and sometimes other people that are also me, but none of them vid) and when I pick a song to vid, it is because I love that song intensely. It isn't just because that song fits such and such situation. I have to *like* and appreciate that song as art. I have to intensely identify with it. I have to be filled with the love of that song and that situation and this bridge and the way it just.... it fills me up and makes me want to wallow.

And when you love something this intensely - it is difficult to accept that not everyone else will share your view. I remember scrolling LJ post-VVC and seeing reviews of the premiere show where someone (and for the life of me I cannot remember who - and if it was someone on my fList, forgive me for bringing this up, but I am trying to make a point) posted about "Two Words" that the vid seemed okay but they detested the song and will never watch it again. And I remember being all "Buh, Buh...KANYE! MOS DEF!!" in my head and my reaction to that reaction had nothing at all to do with my vid - the thing I had made. It was *all* about the song. This, IMO, fantastic song that, outside of me ever vidding it - should be heard. These wonderful artists who are doing something that is soooo important and yeah, maybe you just think you don't like it. I wanted to explain that this song is not about bling or banging shorties or smoking blunts or, as Kanye wryly observes on "The College Dropout" "Here I am rapping 'bout money, ho's and rims, again" and that this song is about urban blight and struggle and being trapped and just trying to survive and find something to put your faith into.

But this was ridiculous. I have NO idea why the poster disliked the song (I didn't respond to her post because that would be tacky), so I immediately defaulted to my overly touchy "I love all music except country and rap" elitist response (and please, by all that is holy - even if you *feel* this way, don't tell me. Seriously, it will keep me awake at night! I will force you to listen to Spearhead. It will not be pretty). I don't know that the poster disliked the song because of some prejudice against the genre or because she just didn't like the song. For all I know, she has the entire Public Enemy Discography and just doesn't care for Kanye West's tendency to speed up his samples. But just the possibility that the song was being misunderstood or dismissed, not on its own merits, but because of a bias or prejudice - that was enough to make me a bit batty.

This will always make me batty. It isn't just songs I have vidded - it is any music that I feel has deeply touched me. Of course I feel compelled to defend it - IT DEEPLY TOUCHED ME. Don't talk shit about Johny Cash's "Hurt" or tell me that Dr. Dre is nothing more than an indefensible gang-banger or mock Ralph Stanley or say anything at all about in-breeding contributing to that "high lonesome sound" or I will have to tell you exactly what I think about your mother. Or I would if my mother would let me. Sadly, she actually reads this LJ and expects me to, you know, act like she raised me. But I will *totally* think really nasty thoughts and aim them in your general direction.

It is like... well. Yeah - it is like family. This is not to say I am incapable of having a serious discussion about some very serious issues. You wanna talk about homophobia and mysogyny as related to gansta rap? Be my guest - I have a lot of ideas I am totally down with sharing (actually - there are some posts I should hunt up and tag about Eminem and kadymae making extremely astute observations about the use of the unreliable narrator as a literary device and the entire persona of "Slim Shady" - that was GREAT stuff). Just be prepared to actually *discuss* this issue with things that you have observed, not just talking points that you read in a magazine. Because guess what? You might not know everything about a genre you refuse to listen to. Just a thought. I got off-track.

This post also isn't here to complain about feedback that says "I hate the song, love the vid" because man - I really really do (I can't stress this enough) appreciate the fact that someone told me how they felt. Yeah - for a second I'll be sad (and possibly trying to pimp you to such-and-such album in the comments) but I'll shake it off and focus on the "love the vid" part. I swear I will, I've had a ton of practice at this and I *get* why the comment often leads with the negative. The viewer opens a vid, watches for a moment. Thinks "I hate this song" and continues watching. Looks up a while later and realizes that they are *still* watching and yet... they hate this song! This is important! This is news to share! I totally get that. I wish you didn't hate the song I love like a sister, but you know - I also *know* my sisters. Sometimes they can be difficult to like.

We are all snowflakes or some other specialized human experience infinite genome thing - so it follows that what I love - you might not care for. What you like, I might not get. I do think there has to be an effort at least toward understanding and appreciation beyond the immediately appealing glommed-reaction. Sometimes you have to learn to like something....like opera. Or wine. Or Faulkner. Sometimes you just *won't* like something. There is a certain type of music that is very popular with many of my friends and I can appreciate that this is well done. I can appreciate the artistic merits. I can even appreciate the craft and beauty inherant in this form of music. I just don't like it. It doesn't appeal to me and it doesn't touch my soul on its own (vids can bridge this dislike). I'm not gonna go buy CDs and stand in line for tickets (hell, I wouldn't stand in line for tickets to see Willie and Bob, hee. Man I want to go, though). This is fine.

Sometimes a song reminds us of a particular experience or time in our life and is off-putting because of this. Poor laurashapiro and debchan - I think I have told this story to them a thousand times, but when I was a kid, I was in the hospital and I had this fever dream with Dire Straits "Money for Nothing" running on repeat in my head. To this day the sound of Mark Knoffler's voice (while I grant that he is an extremely talented artist) has the power to viscerally remind me of the worst I have ever felt physically in my life. I was cold and they (mom and the nurses) kept pulling the blankets off me and I was hurting and they had this bright light shining on my face and I couldn't get away from it and I couldn't figure out what was going on enough to communicate anything to anyone. I remember a nurse saying something about an ice bath and I wanted to cry hearing that but I couldn't. And all the while, in the background, there is this voice that just keeps saying "I want my MTV" and ACK!

So for 15 years I avoided that song like the plague. And then it became a Firefly vid by these ladies and DAMN! I liked it. I could listen to Dire Straits and not feel as if I might die. Andthis was huge and I have babbled on about this at length because the song was now redeemed. FIFTEEN YEARS IN A FEVER DREAM, wiped out by one vid. This, this is the mark of a fantastic vid because it owned its song, not the other way around. So I get the temptation to lead the commenting with "I hate this song but I loved this vid" I really do get that.

But what I really want to hear is "I thought I disliked this song/genre/artist but this vid gave me something to think about" because, man - that is fantastic. So great. I'll probably go bust into the box of "Not for Liz" and learn to do a cartwheel.

ETA: *None* of this applies to critical feedback addressing song choice - just to make that point clear. If you feel the song just did not work and the vidder *did not* pull it off? That is totally valid. Anyone who bitches at you for saying as much is a big cry-baby and needs to take a lesson on dealing with concrit. *If* you thought at first there is no way they can pull off this song to this vid and then the vidder succeeds? Also really cool to know. Edited Twice - cause I can't tell a morgandawn from a debchan sometimes. I blame hunger.

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twas not me who did the 'money for nothing' vid. But hey, you can always praise me anyday. any time.

actually this reminds me of how song lyrics that are hard to hear can lead you to run around for years with the wrong lyrics in your head. In 'Money For Nothing" the line: "...you get your checks for free" always had me wondering why rock stars were so hard up for cash that free checking was a good thing.

For xlorp, one Talking Heads song ran amuck with the line: "Pyscho Chicken, Qu'es Que ce?"

And I do! You did "Wonder of Birds" - right? Or am I losing my mind completely? Man, I love that vid.

Laura!! Who collaborated with you on MfN??

My best one was that old AC/DC Standard "Dirty Deeds, Gunga Din"

That was Debchan, wasn't it?

YES! Good God, I am losing my mind.

If it's any comfort, I'm one of those people who totally and ignorantly dismissed Eminem as a useless racist homophobe, just based on media impressions, and without ever having actually listened to the music. Then I saw the Lilah vid you and Dawn did to "Without Me" and it was really awesome and it made me listen to the song and now I have all his CDs.

So yeah, it works that way, too, sometimes. :-)

Me too! Which is a shame because all that music I'm hording (see your post above about sharing but not too much because MINE MINE MINE) will be lost forever! Two months before I can release two current obsessions, but then I have to yank one of them back again. *g*

I always liked MJ's song "Billie Jean": "Billie Jean is not my lover; she's just a girl who claims that I am the one / the chair is not my son."

Darn Michael and his furniture-bastard children.

I was recently tortured for a month by a Scratch Perverts song which apparently featured Mos Def singing about "mountains of pigs".

And which is so obscure that the lyrics cannot be found by Google ....

..
.
.

(Mountains and peaks. Mountains and peaks. It took me a month to figure it out).

I agree with so much of this post, it's a little scary.

Including the fact that I've had a container of my favorite Ben & Jerry's ice cream sitting in my freezer for three weeks that I just haven't found the desire to eat. I don't know what the heck happened to me, but I blame all this "healthy good" and the "low-sugar diet." Pft. Whatever.

The entirety of your post about music as a personal response, and wanting to share music so that other people feel the same way you do - man, I could've written that myself. There are so many times I've made someone listen to a song with the hopes they'd get it; and many times I haven't shared a song at all because I was afraid they wouldn't get it. It's such a personal response.

I also do not know how to do a cartwheel. I never took gymnastics as a child and then when I realized my cartwheel-lack, I tried to teach myself but it was ugly. So instead I learned how to skateboard.

I still owe you feedback darn it. I start your vid up and every time they say "The name of the game," I get chills. The song is perfect, even if I can't understand all the lyrics. Hee.

Ya know, music is personal for me, too, but I think (for all I mostly choose songs no one else has ever heard of) I'm much more narrow-minded, musically, than most of the vidders I know. And I've always assumed that was a permanent state of affairs: I didn't like stuff outside my particular whacked-out genres, and that was the way it was going to stay.

And what watching vids in general, and your vids in particular, has taught me that I *can*, in fact, learn to like a rap song, or a punk song, or an alt-rock growlfest like "Busted". And this is a great gift, it is a wonderful thing that vids give me. So your "Money for Nothing" story, which just makes me so happy, also makes me nod enthusiastically in understanding. A good vid can *do* that.

I think I'm one of the few vidders, though, who isn't bothered by "I hate this song/genre but I love your vid" in feedback. Sometimes I get puzzled, like when people get the genre wrong ("Lord I Have Made You..." has been called "country" a few times, which always makes me quizzical), but it doesn't piss me off -- I think because I know at the outset that I'm taking certain risks, and music is such a visceral and, yes, personal thing for people that you just can't expect everyone to like it. So when people say they liked the vid *in spite of* this, it makes me feel like my vid is just that much more awesome.

But I can see how, if you love the song, you want other people to be nice to it and cuddle it and say kind things about it. And beyond that, something which I didn't see in your conversation over at

sdwolfpup's, there's the sense of "Hey, I picked this song, I picked it for a number of very good reasons, it's totally right for this vid, I have confidence in my song choice and I am *good* at this, so screw you anyway." IOW, bitching about the song is bitching about *your song choice*, is bitching about your creative talent on some level. And I wonder if that isn't why some vidders gets so upset about it.

BTW, glad to see others put you right on my co-vidder

debchan. She is mighty and damn, I want her to vid more.

You see, I've always liked the "I hate the song (or the fandom, or the pairing, or the writing genre), but I love your final product," sort of comments. It makes me feel like I've really succeeded against all odds and that I must have truely done something right. It's easy to get folks who like the source to like your vids, as is proven by lots of enthusiastic comments on mediocre vids. I also figure that anytime someone likes one the finished product they are more likely to become open to sources, so even if they don't like rap or Buffy now, they might after exposure to enough compelling examples of vids using them.

You thought you were tone-deaf? No shit! That's wild.

One thing I didn't mention in my discussion with you earlier is the question of volume -- that not only does how people frame their comments matter ( the ones where people tell you that you won them over, for instance, being nicer than the ones that labor on and on about how much they hate your song), but also how many times you have to hear it. I always really appreciated that you said "YOu had me at John Hiatt" about the challenge show Firefly vid last year, because you can't imagine how many people have felt compelled to tell me how much they dislike the song. the first couple times, it's easier to go, hey, it's fb, so cool, I can get over the harshing. But after the fifteenth time? Not necessary. Plus, a lot of the time... it doesn't even have anything to do with the fb. It's just that they felt compelled to say they hated the song.

Same with My Beautiful Reward -- everyone has to tell me how much they loathe Springsteen first. Even if it has nothing to do with anything else in the fb. And seriously, the 50th time I heard that, it was... at that point, I coud no longer find joy in the comments. It seemed as if the whole wide fannish world was agin me. I was all, nobody loves me, everybody hates me, guess I'll go eat some worms. I know that people are often giving fb in a vacuum -- they have no idea what others are saying. Which I guess is why I often ask myself now, "Do I need to explain to the vidder that I hate her music? Is it relevant to the feedback?" If I honestly can't say that it is, if it's more of a "you won me over" I will try to just leave the winning over part out. I will just focus on the fact that yes, I loved the vid. They don't need to know necessarily that I wasn't keen on the moosic.

OTOH, if I think that the vidder is making a bad song choice or their selection makes a huge difference in how I perceive the vid, then I will factor that in, and frame the comments around that. And never, never start out with, "Well, normally I hate x and such, but..." I save the negative for after the positive.

The variety of music and discovering new music is one of many things I love about vids. There are so many artists I probably would have never been exposed to -- Rufus Wainwright, Dar Williams, Kanye West, (and others my mind is blanking). Artists that I really like and seek out cds.

Ok, I do download a few tracks -- just to make sure that I like them enough to shell out money.

I like Kanye West. I've listened to Two Words, Jesus Walks, and another song, but I'm blanking. I want to hear more so I'm going to go legit and buy a cd.

I've found it a thrill to listen to something that maybe I've thought "not my thing" and discover that, yeah, maybe it is.

I can't believe I spaced on Debchan being the co-vidder on "Money for Nothing" - I think it is because I was watching "Wonder of Birds" the other day and *that* vidder pairing was stuck in my head. I too wish for her to vid more.

cuddle it and say kind things about it. And beyond that, something which I didn't see in your conversation over at sdwolfpup's, there's the sense of "Hey, I picked this song, I picked it for a number of very good reasons, it's totally right for this vid, I have confidence in my song choice and I am *good* at this, so screw you anyway." IOW, bitching about the song is bitching about *your song choice*, is bitching about your creative talent on some level. And I wonder if that isn't why some vidders gets so upset about it.

For me - I can deal if the issue is about what I did, or how I did it or even just that the song does not work with the source. I'm taking a risk so I am willing to learn from maybe not succeeding or at least hear opposing viewpoints. This is valid - this is concrit - this is important and I don't feel the same type of defensiveness.

To say I didn't feel *any* defensiveness at all upon hearing what doesn't work for people or quibbles or plain ole negative feedback would be a lie. I do, I am human. But I don't feel the need to jump in and lecture about this or that or explain things away. I can deal.

But the song! The song I put out there, into this harsh world and it didn't ask to not be loved! There is an instinctive protectiveness that goes beyond my own ego. I care about this song and want it to be happy and loved. Sometimes I think (and again not complaining about the feedback I do receive) but I think I would rather hear "Loved the song - still not so sure about the vid" than "Hate the song, loved the vid" just because at least now the viewer will probably go and get the album or listen to some tracks from iTunes and might get turned on to a whole new thing! Loving the song is this open-ended prospect of a journey and who knows where it will end up?

Loving the vid? I mean, there can be a journey there as well (especially with a really stellar vid) in that you explore a new pairing or a fandom you were unfamiliar with or learn to understand a particular character. This is also exciting. But the musical journey might be the one I am the most invested in.

I cannot recommend Kanye's "The College Dropout" enough. Start to finish? Brilliant concept and works fantastically. The tracks, the skits -- everything works together as a whole and even songs that I felt were missteps at first (Like the Jaime Foxx guest-stint on Slow Jamz) I now understand and appreciate. I love this album.

I can e-mail you the lyrics, if that'd help ...

::will whimper pathetically for feedback::

I do need to make any final changes with enough time left to get it converted into the proper format (since it's 25 fps and PAL at the moment, conversion is sort of tricky).

I know it's hard not to take it personally, but I've encountered very few people with musical tastes similar to mine, and even fewer vidders, so it sort of goes with the territory, unfortunately.

I will never be a fan of Britney, Mariah, anyone from American Idol, rap, hip hop, death metal, boybands (okay, I was when I was little, but not anymore), corporate pop (those who got recording contracts based on their marketable looks), and lots of other artists and genres. To my ears, most of that stuff is like nails on a chalkboard. And honestly, it's not a reflection on anyone who likes or has ever made a vid to that music, and it also doesn't mean I won't watch those vids, because I've watched and loved many. It's just the way I'm wired. I can't help it. I also know lots of people would take one look at my CD collection and toss it into the nearest trash bin. And that's fine. They don't have to like my music. I like it, and ultimately, that has to be enough.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, here. *g* Just keep doing what you're doing, and try not to let the criticism bother you.

I was totally told I was tone-deaf as a child and believed it. I didn't realize that just the fact that I could *hear* the changes in the music meant I wasn't, so until

tzikeh told me so. I was singing "Que Sera" with her iTunes and apparently there was a keychange and I went with it.

Now I am kind of astounded that there are people who *can't* hear that. I think I am still a bit "Tone Illiterate."

Man - see I love John Hiatt so much that if people told me they disliked him I'd feel bad cause he is a really nice guy. And he wrote "Everybody Went Low" -- how can you not like this man? And I like Springsteen as well. So, for everyone who *doesn't* like the artist in question, ya gotta know there are several of us who *do* -- we probably aren't as vocal with "I love this song!" as we could be (I do know that "Valentine Heart" had an extremely favorable song response and that pleased me immensely.

It can be wearing to hear the same thing time after time -- I can totally commiserate with that. Usually I am prepared, but sometimes for the wrong thing. When I decided to vid Starbuck, I knew there were going to be the people who did not think the song was appropriate. I was ready for the crit. I was standing at that base fully attentive. Turns out, no one really said that -- but a lot of people *don't* like Emmylou Harris. A lot of people didn't like the song - which is my *favorite* Bob Dylan cover, ever.

Once I got over "How can you not like Emmylou Harris? She's Emmylou! She's GOD!" I was okay. But dude. Still a bit shocked cause I thought Emmylou and chocolate were pretty neck and neck as far as personal preferences go.

And I had to worry that I had done the song a disservice because while I was ready for the critical reaction regarding my pairing this song with this material and any quibbles someone had with my cutting style or my interpretation of lyrics -- I really couldn't stand to hear someone (not on my LJ, mind you) refer to Emmylou as earbleeding (I think). It felt so wrong.

Awww - Kanye West is going to be in the rap section. Easiest thing to do is to go up to the dude at the front and just tell him you want Kanye West's "The College Dropout"

I'd recommend listening to a few other tracks first as Two Words is a departure from everything else. I personally adore "All Falls Down" and "Family Business" and "School Spirit"

If you like Kanye -- consider listening to some of the people who guest on his CD, like Talib Kweli and Mos Def (::subtle pimp::) - these guys make socially conscious music that is still quite beautiful (check them out as a duo in "Black Star" or on their single discs).

And record stores (just like book stores) can be overwhelming. Arm yourself with a list of songs and groups you might like and go to a store with a listening station. I've wasted *hours* just on listening binges and sometimes I find just...the perfect *thing* and it feels so great to make a random connection like that.

I love the way you write and I love the way you write about vids. ::buttprint::

Please do. And I'll take a look at your vid right now. I don't think I had any suggested changes, honestly. Just positive impressions.

Also - something I just realized: most of Kanye's commentary is actually focused on trends and mores in the Rap Industry. The song "Slow Jamz" is a play on old school romantic music (panty-dropping songs). If you don't already have a familiarity with the genre (or at least with the perceptions in the genre) I wonder how some of the songs will hit you? Because, take it from me, the honesty in his lyrics is entirely refreshing and genuine in a different way from Eminem (another scarily honest rapper).

For example, in "All Falls Down" he admits that his pursuit of outward trappings of wealth, things he cannot afford, he does this because he is self-conscious. He then proceeds to analyze just where these feelings originate. He isn't the first rapper to say some of these things - but he is one of the first to approach the subject with such humility and rue.

I say fuck the police*, thats how I treat em
We buy our way out of jail, but we can't buy freedom
We'll buy a lot of clothes when we don't really need em
Things we buy to cover up what's inside
Cause they make us hate ourself and love they wealth
That's why shortys hollering "where the ballas' at?"
Drug dealer buy Jordans, crackhead buy crack
And a white man get paid off of all of that

*referencing famous and controversial N.W.A. song "Fuck tha Police"

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Hate the Song, Like the Vid?

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