(no subject)

[sisabet]

Oh good God: If you were emotionally traumatized by Season Six Spuffy then I think you need to go back and rethink what the words emotionally traumatized mean.

Cause, I just don't get it. I mean, yeah - I see evidence of what she is saying regarding the perceived emotional lability of former Spuffies. Not so much people who shipped Spike and Buffy or were interested in that dynamic or whatever - cause I was interested. I didn't think it was a particularly good idea for either party to become involved, but that makes for interesting viewing of a train wreck. But I also never thought of Spike as defenseless or meek or even a woobie.

And I've never noticed that fans of slash pairings were Spuffy people fleeing from canon. Huh. No - I've been into Spike and Angel since... season 2. The upswing in interest for the pairing after Buffy ended? Was there an upswing in S/A interest? If there was, I'd say it is because they were on the same show!

The interest in Spike/Xander as a pairing? Well, I noticed a lot of people becoming really interested in the pairing (including yours truly) when there were these really well thought out and lovely stories by Anna S. and Mpoetess and Wiseacress and, and, and...I could go on. So, yeah, I guess a person could be reading Anna S.'s "Season Noir" cause of the Spike/Buffy in it and then, just by way of being on her website, could click on "Sidelines" and then be blown away by the story. In fact, there is no guessing here, I actually know this has happened to some friends. Still, I don't think that is so much a fleeing into slash so much as it is an introduction to "Hey! This is interesting!"

But it is also possible I don't run in the "I Love Slash as A Reaction to My Severe Emotional Spuffy Trauma!" circles. Is there a circle? Maybe a triangle! That would be cute. I'm forever finding pockets of fandom I never knew existed before and while some may think this is a tragic breakdown of centralization, I am actually kind of grateful for the insular nature of just hanging with my Flist. Cause have you seen it out there? It is freaking scary out there!

Just - if ever I needed encouragement to *not* watch Veronica Mars, this is it. Cause if this is where all those insane-ass people ended up, you know - the ones who made you hate Spike, not cause of the character, but because of his fans? Count me out.

Comments

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

... Spuffy caused slash?

Life is interesting.

I think you should watch Veronica Mars. I like Logan. I am so at peace with this liking that I'm thinking about rewatching BtVS and seeing if I like Spike this time around.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I think Spuffy invented slash. And the internets! And chicken pot pie!

I remember headtilt getting pinged to death by this person who held me and Dawn personally responsible for corrupting mrmonkeybottoms because in addition to writing Spike/Buffy, she was collaborating with us on a Spike/Xander story. Cause teh slash is so eval OMG.

Huh - you know I need to go find Monkey cause we never wrote the whole getting drunk on Jack Daniels and jumping over the bonfire naked scene. And that was pretty funny in chat.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

omg...that's narrow vision if i've ever seen it. i'm gonna metafandom this to share this crack fascinating analysis as widely as possible :D

seriously, though, while i know some folks who moved from het to slash (and i think that might be a general trend as in if one crosses from one to the other it tends to be het/gen -> slash rather than the other way around) to make S6 responsible. LOL.

but none of that should keep you from watching VM, b/c it is a great show!!! just watch it and don't hang out with the crazies :-)

[embitca.livejournal.com]

And some of us like Het and slash. Shocking, shocking, I know.

[eliade.livejournal.com]

And I've never noticed that fans of slash pairings were Spuffy people fleeing from canon.

It's funny--I always vaguely (and maybe wrongly) suspect that some readers are thinking of me in this category, and I want to say, "Um, you do realize that I wrote slash online for five years before this and that Spike/Buffy was the het anomaly?" *g* But who knows.

[ex-dovil323.livejournal.com]

You realise you got me into Spike/Xander. You peddler of filthy slash.

*thanks you and gives you puppies*

[ex-dovil323.livejournal.com]

But I also never thought of Spike as defenseless or meek or even a woobie.

That drives me nuts. Spike's my favourite character but when I see him branded as the After School Special victim of Buffy's hate and evilness I just want to shake my head. Because apparently one of the worst vampires that ever walked the earth is really just rainbows and kittens and candyfloss inside and Buffy is selfish and eeeevil. He wrote poetry don't you know!

Sorry, that went into rant mode. In that post I read another comment on how abusive Buffy is and what a terrible person, and yeah, ranting happends.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Yeah - well, I just kept myself from commenting by, um, posting here. Cause, you know - if you do get involved with an abusive relationship and let it continue then yes, you need help. You have issues. You should stop and think about them and perhaps take some time out of dating so you don't repeat these same issues.

But I refrained and even fled from the rest of the comments. Cause I don't want high blood pressure.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

God help me, I responded to her. because really, it comes down to this: she's invented this elaborate theory because she Doesn't Get Slash. Which...hon? Welcome to the world.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

I'm sleepy. Let's have some Imanicon Icon Cake!

[thebratqueen.livejournal.com]

I'm an Angel/Wes shipper. What's my trauma? Fred?

No, wait, that actually makes sense in a way.

Except I was into A/W before Fred came on the show.

OMG! I'm psychic!!!

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Angel/Wes? OMG YOU ARE JUST SICK!!!

Angel/Spike ROOLZ!

Actually, I just don't have an A/W icon. Sigh. As an Angel/Wes shipper, you were obviously deeply traumatized by Angel/Buffy and how BtVS Season 3 ended because there was an IMPLICIT PROMISE that Angel and Buffy would be together forever and when the show took that away from you, you reacted in a very strange and off-putting way. I mean - dude - Angel/Wes? What is your basis for that? Cause it isn't as if Wes would capture and torture a human woman for several months looking for Angel or would open a vein to FEED Angel if he had to and it isn't as if Wes is the only man Angel has ever loved....oh, wait. It is. Crap.

Can I have an A/W icon?

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Just - if ever I needed encouragement to *not* watch Veronica Mars, this is it.

But lots of sane people watch VM and love it and there's absolutely no reason you'd ever have to run into the crazies and talk to them. I mean - you can talk to me and elynross and killabeez and melina123 and flummery and whatssnoo and _par_avion and and and ...

[tir.livejournal.com]

Yes, what tzikeh said. Lots of sane VM fans out here, I promise!

[dualbunny.livejournal.com]

Oh, but there's plenty of sane people watching VM! Joss loves it too! Come ooooooon--give in already! :D

I've never had an inkling of understanding as to how or why someone would stay around a show long enough to be emotionally scarred. And I am extrememly obssesive about shows. They're still TV. I watch them because I looooove them. Although soemtimes it is kind of funny to watch the people who were somehow emotionally scarred flail and run into things.

The only thing I find emotionally traumatizing about TV (in a bad way) is when shows get killed before they're supposed to. *That* has left me with scars.

Also...

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Veronica Mars is Joss-Whedon-Endorsed-Televions (http://whedonesque.com/comments/7502).

in other news:

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I wish I could spell "television".

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

Spuffy made people go back in time and slash Kirk and Spock! It is true, I have seen it.

*nods*

I actually did like Spuffy for brief time. The summer between BtVS S2 and S3. I read all sorts of (mostly bad) stories about Buffy running into Spike post-Becoming. It was scary, though, and I've...

Hey, maybe that's what made me slash Angel and Doyle (and then Angel and Wesley). It must have been a tramatic Spuffy experience. Because slash isn't appealing on its own. It must have an outside reason.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

When I was a child, my pony died.

This is why I like Slash.

[vonniek.livejournal.com]

From the post:

The S6 writers had, unintentionally, destroyed the sexual identities of a vast portion of the straight female viewers.

OMG. Can't. Stop. Laughing. From now on, whenever some says something I don't like, I'm gonna accuse them of destroying my sexual identity. It's got a nice ring to you, don't you think?

Except, why can't they leave my shiny happy new fandom alone, damnit? *sigh* VM is a good show, and I think you'll genuinely like Logan. He's more than some irritating Spike-clone. Then you can come hang with us instead of the crazy people over there.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

Yeah but I am afraid cause you linked to that one VM post that one time (hee!) and there was BUFFY BASHING!!!

And it destroyed my sexual identity.

[gadsten.livejournal.com]

...I am actually kind of grateful for the insular nature of just hanging with my Flist. Cause have you seen it out there? It is freaking scary out there!

That could be one of the MANY reasons why I don't seek out other fandoms on purpose. Either that, having been one kinda did me in.

[elz.livejournal.com]

Any post that attempts to psychoanalyze people for liking something that you Just Don't Get is bound to end up in a very bad place. Have we learned nothing from metafandom?

[luna-k.livejournal.com]

Severe emotional trauma? THE FUCK?

::backs away from teh crazy::

Just - if ever I needed encouragement to *not* watch Veronica Mars, this is it.

We're not all crazy, I swear! Just, like, watch the show without dealing with the fans. Heh.

[ubixtiz.livejournal.com]

..."I Love Slash as A Reaction to My Severe Emotional Spuffy Trauma!" circles. Is there a circle? Maybe a triangle!

I think there should be buttons.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

I LOVE YOU.

[hobviously.livejournal.com]

ichthyocentaurs = community for sane Veronica Mars fans. There are plenty of us.

Just sayin'.

[setje.livejournal.com]

reading this with much interest and friended you if you don't mind

*hugs*

[shadowlongknife.livejournal.com]

Perhaps a dodecahedron. Triangles and circles are so five minutes ago.

[idyll.livejournal.com]

I was going to suggest ice lattices, just because we are, like, OMG, way intricate!!111one!

[ficbyzee.livejournal.com]

Oh my GOD, the stupidity of this person. Yes, Veronica totally learns to accept Logan's 'softer' interior. Which is why she turns him into the police and he tells her to literally go stick her head in an oven. IT'S SO ROMANTIC!

Not all Veronica Mars fans are crazy. Really. I *promise.*

Giggles

[nychick081.livejournal.com]

That one just cracked me up.

And seconded, we're not all crazies. A little on the ecentric side, but sane none the less.

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

I read the original post and shook my head several times. With much vigor.

I'll be friending you if you don't mind. You can't have too many sane people on the ol' flist.

[superplin.livejournal.com]

See, this is where I think, "Wait, all my favorite flist people aren't already friended amongst themselves?" Very confusing, not to mention wrong.

I'm glad to see you two have finally met: a daily dose of Sisabet is an important part of a healthy flist diet. You'll start feeling better almost immediately, I'm sure of it. ;)

As for the main topic, all I can do is heave a big sigh and be grateful I have barely had time to catch up with the Internets this week. Is mercury still retrograde? 'Cause this really needs to end soon.

(For the record, no trauma here. And the slash I do read--which, granted, isn't tons--is all about the fabulous writing of people like witling, etc., and has zero to do with events before, during, or after S6. But I doubt I needed to say that.)

[elizaria.livejournal.com]

*follows kita0610's post*

Umm *raises hand* so if I like all kindsa parings, in fic (cause it's one thing to see it in fic, and truly seeing it as a possibility in canon, like S/W) if they are well written like say.. S/B, S/A, S/X, A/W, Sp/Buff/Ang, Spi/Connor, even one Sp/Willow story, does that make me a pairing/fic slut? Or have I been so traumatized by Spuffy it's complete and utter braindamage?

I didn't even manage to read that entire post, cause she kinda lost me around
People would be die-hard Spuffy fans. For some reason or another, they would read a slash fic or two. They wouldn't like it. But, either because a friend of theirs wrote it or an author they liked did, they'd keep reading it. And, eventually, they'd learn to like it.

Huh? It couldn't be because of pretty by boy times 2 is a good thing, or that these stories are so wellwritten that you just suddenly see the pretty that you've just never thought of before? (points at Anna's Subtleties - pretty sure that was my S/X moment, and for that epiphany I owe you big. Thanks!)

And A/S - well that's canon by now and I love Joss even more for that. That even I who was pretty much blind to slash otherwise, got my eyes opening for it in Spike's 'Sire Yoda'-speach and then the kiss on forehead later on. With lot's of help of reading Kita's stories heh :D (and yes I'm very new to Buffy fandom)

But I was predominantly S/B becuase I followed the show and I loved Buffy and Spike... but the whole thing of them as working as a couple.. well that got kinda screwed by the series itself didn't it. Except I enjoyed the friendship thing they had going on at the end. And when she kissed Angel before teh cookie speach, she should just have invited Spike. LoL



One thing Kantayra did say though that I have wondered myself, is that lately (for me) everywhere on the web if there's a new show with two male main characters - there's slashiness. And it's not necessary a bad thing, I just wonder if the buddy/friend part just vanished and everything turns sexual, and I kinda miss that.

I may be one of the very few ;) online who otherwise loves slash but can't see my dearly beloved hobbits from my childhood tales of Tolkien as anything else than friends. The actors - that's a completely different thing, then we're into RPS which definitely has it's own qualities. But the hobbits, and elves and lost kings - I want them to be friends and nothing sexual.

The same wondering comes whith this fic-incest thing that also pops up more and more lately. Or not? Maybe it's cause I'm still new on the slash area of fanfic? I just wondered for example Num3ers - why it couldn't just be brotherly love/affection without turning into sexual?

Or maybe it's just the simple thought of what I said above, 2 pretty guys are prettier together. And I just circled my own rambling didn't I..

And yes, I am tired and it's 2am and I'm rambling in your post - sorry about that.

[sisabet.livejournal.com]

One thing Kantayra did say though that I have wondered myself, is that lately (for me) everywhere on the web if there's a new show with two male main characters - there's slashiness. And it's not necessary a bad thing, I just wonder if the buddy/friend part just vanished and everything turns sexual, and I kinda miss that.

See, that is just it - this is not new. Seriously, it isn't, not at all. You are just aware of it now. It isn't as if all of a sudden we see sex everywhere, we've always seen sex everywhere :)

This isn't to say you always have to see it. There are pairing out there that I am not into. There are pairing types that hit my bullet proof kinks and there are some situations that are a bullet proof squicks for me -- we get to pick and chose who we love and who we love to love with other people because they are in love or maybe it isn't love maybe it is just obsession and yet also...love.

Trust me - slash has been around and going strong and steady for a long long time under many permutations...

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

Wow. I never even watched BtVS or AtS, but apparently the trauma fandom-hops and time travels.

That's some trauma.

[treebee.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering how this works for someone like me, who never liked or wanted Spuffy - S6 version or otherwise.

Add in the fact that I read both het & slash and I completely frell up the equation. :)

[kimera.livejournal.com]

Add in the fact that I read both het & slash and I completely frell up the equation.

I know, man! I'm like... but... but I shipped John and Delenn, and Fraser and RayK, and Vin and Chris, and Sinbad and Maeve, and... dude. I JUST LIKE PORN OKAY? And nineties television.

[herself_nyc]

Heh. VM is a great show … don't deprive yourself because of this strange theory.